Tuesday, May 23, 2006
Money in Politics, Politics in Money

The issue of Singaporean ministerial salaries has been a hotly-debated one, at least behind the scenes of mainstream journalism.  I did a quick search on Google to find out the exact figures, but couldn't find as wide a range of independent observations and chronicles as I normally like to, so as to lend the information credibility.  If anyone has differing figures they deem more accurate, do update me.  But the consensus I gather from the Internet is that our ministers are the highest paid in the world, and that the Prime Minister's basic salary is USD 1 239 240 per annum, or SGD 1 958 000 (I converted SGD to USD using the latest exchange rate of 1USD=1.58SGD; again, tell me if I'm wrong with the figures).  That is more than three times that of the US President's salary of USD 400 000 per annum*.

The defence the PAP has always launched against the accusation that their salaries are too high is to say: "We must do so in order to prevent corruption." I have always found that to be a thin excuse.  What, after all, is corruption? The use of one's position in order to profit illegally.  High ministerial salaries simply permit the PAP to use their position in order to profit legally.  A simple analogy: it is illegal for someone to shoplift a gold necklace from a jewelry store.  But this thievery would be perfectly legal if we had no laws against shoplifting in the first place.  One could profit in an arguably unethical manner without breaking any laws.  Similarly, it would be illegal for the Prime Minister to siphon away $2 million a year.  But as a politician in power, instead of siphoning it away, he simply ensures that he can receive $2 million a year in a perfectly transparent and above-board manner.  That's what they really mean by the concept of high ministerial salaries removing the need for corruption.  They don't need to be corrupt: we just hand over the money anyway.

Yes, there are benefits to the system.  It keeps corruption under control by removing the primary incentive for it - money.  And a corruption-free government undeniably attracts investors.  According to Transparency International's Corruption Perceptions Index (CPI) we are ranked as the 5th least corrupt nation in the world as of 2005, after Iceland, New Zealand, Finland and Denmark.  But the investigation does not, and must not stop there.

There is a basic principle to keeping ministerial salaries from skyrocketing, and it is one that is often overlooked in Singapore.  Politicians in our government exist not to further their own interests, but to subordinate their personal advancement to the needs of the nation.  They serve the nation, and not the other way round.  As a child, I used to wonder why they were called civil servants - the word 'servant' always had insulting connotations of someone that's second-class, servile and unworthy of much note.  But as I grew, I came to realise that there is great dignity, perhaps even the greatest dignity, in being a servant of others; in placing their needs above your own, and in committing yourself to serve and protect them.  That is the sacred vow, the tacit contract that politicians undertake by entering this service.  Lower salaries make it clear that they are fundamentally different from those in the private sector who seek to profit from their positions, making the frequent comparison between public workers and private ones like corporation directors or media stars totally redundant.  The nature and purpose of their work are as different as night and day.  Managing ministerial salaries ensures, too, that people do not enter politics simply to gain from the high pay and benefits, but that they do so because they genuinely want to put their talents to the good use of representing the country.  Else, people would work towards entering the government simply because of the dangling carrot that is a fat pay cheque - which would clearly have disastrous consequences for us all.

That is why George Bush, who is the leader of the most powerful country in the world and has far more responsibilities than PM Lee will ever have, is paid three times less*.  That is why there was such a public outcry when TT Durai's salary was uncovered - it was legal and above board, but it was wrong in principle.  But here in Singapore, this important principle is over-ridden, once again, by the excuse that it keeps corruption under control.  Very well then, let us bring that reason under scrutiny.  According to the aforementioned CPI, there are four countries in the world which are even less corrupt than ours.  As Singaporean ministers are paid the highest in the world, it obviously goes to follow that all these countries' ministers are paid less than ours.  I did a bit of research and found out, via this article, that New Zealand PM Helen Clark's salary is NZD 305 000 per annum, or USD 189 440 - less than George Bush, and six and a half times less than PM Lee (I converted 305 000 NZD into 189 440 USD with the latest exchange rate of 1.61). New Zealand is ranked 3 places above Singapore in the CPI, as the 2nd least corrupt government in the world.  Why is it that New Zealand ministers can be even less corrupt than our ministers, and yet are paid so many times less?

If we allow ourselves to succumb to the mentality that we need to pay them extravagant amounts of money in order for them not to be corrupt, we are implying that they otherwise cannot be trusted; that unless they benefit so much from their positions, they cannot do a good job; that our ministers are six and a half times as inferior, six and a half times as selfish and six and a half times as prone to corruption than ministers from New Zealand (not to mention Iceland, Finland and Denmark).  I would like to be convinced otherwise, but the message being sent by our high ministerial salaries is proving it difficult.  Let me tell you what makes it even more difficult: that salaries are being paid to the members of our government, on top of the lucrative salaries they are enjoying in their professional lives.

This brings me to the next issue: politics in money.  Our MPs do not work full-time.  They hold very prominent positions in businesses all throughout Singapore, and little wonder, too; they are recruited from these positions with the natural assumption that their high-flying careers make them capable, and not forced to give up their jobs, which are extremely demanding and exacting.  Only Chiam See Tong, as of April 21 2006 (the release date of the CNA article I'm reading at the moment) is a full-time MP.  The PAP made it a point to tout their new recruits as being young professionals.  Does this truly work for them? Will such young professionals, dedicated to their burgeoning careers, be able to devote all their time to the needs of the community they serve? I quote Steve Chia: "You can see the long queues at the Meet-the-People sessions every week.  Residents are sometimes even turned away.  How can MPs serve their constituents fully if they don't have the time to do so?"

Let me get this straight.  The basic monthly allowance that MPs receive has more than doubled over the last decade from $4516 in 1995 (not inclusive of their legislative and secretarial allowances amounting to $825) to $11 917 presently, and only one MP has stepped down from his job in the private sector? Meeting the needs of their constituency is still a part time occupation? Talking to residents is still a part time occupation? Serving the nation is still a part time occupation? But let's not be overly excited.  After all, perhaps these jobs are not so demanding - perhaps they are easy shoes to fill, with time left over to look into other things.

Or are they?

I went to the complete list of MPs, last updated 11 May 2006, and did background checks on 3 randomly-selected MPs.  Ong Chit Chung, Jurong GRC: Independent Director of WesTech Electronics Limited, and the President of Davos Life Sciences Pte Ltd (sounds like three jobs to me).  Ong Kian Min, Tampines GRC: Lawyer/Consultant at prestigious law firm Drew & Napier.  Cedric Foo, West Coast GRC: Group Deputy President and President Asia/Middle East of Neptune Orient Lines.  Any one of these jobs on its own sounds like a time-consuming, extenuating and exhausting position to fill.  How much time left over do they have? How much time are they inclined to spend on leaky toilets, flickering lights, and a resident's license application or financial woes?

There is more to the discussion, of course - the possible clash of interests when an individual serves both in the public and the private sector, hence giving him the power to formulate policies favourable to their own business interests, or the other manifestation of 'politics in money' - relations of government leaders who have high-ranking positions in prominent companies, government-linked or otherwise.  But for now this should be sufficient for us to ponder over, and have a second look at this dirty but unavoidable word of money, and the role it plays in our politics.

* It was pointed out to me that the American President's salary is now USD 400 000 per annum.  Thanks to Andrew who e-mailed me to make corrections.


Posted at 07:56 pm by gaylegoh

Bt Pajang Citizen
January 7, 2008   11:29 PM PST
 
Is so sad :( that they decide to pay themselves handsomely...

The poor will con't to suffer inorder to make ends meet.Day in and day out to make a small living...

Who will help them to improve their std of living,only god know.
Tortoise
April 12, 2007   08:50 AM PDT
 
I am currently staying in overseas as a permanent resident. Has been hesitating whether I should apply for a citizenship here and give up my identity as a Sinagporean.

This salary increment issue has somehow bombarded my thoughts in a malicious way.

PM might be right, considering Singapore as one of the smallest country, an increment in pay will help to keep people on. But, who are these people? The increment only involve real senior "civil servant" like ministers and PM himself, what about us, a commoner?

I am in Australia, being a office clerk here earns nearly $40 000 per annual. There is a standard 30% tax (less income earner is entitled for a lesses tax), however Australians got to access medical facilities like Emergency Department, blood test, X-ray, GP consultantion... absolutely free. Which, this is an area where caused most Singaporeans a head shook when looking at the charges.
Retirees, handicapped, jobless, single parents, students are well taken care of by receiving a reasonable amount which is able to keep them going in lives... Systems is not all perfect, but Australians is contented as almost every part of life stage is being taken care of.

So, while our PM & ministers are receiving the top salaries in the world, have they ever thought of their people are aparently earning the one of the lowest pay among development countries? So, if you are not a government scholor, not a PAP members and bla bla bla, you are not the one they wanted to keep?

Here's a comparison:-

SG Clerk: 20 000 -35 000
Aus Clerk: 38 000 - 46 000

Radiotherapist
SG: 32 000 - 45 000
Aus: 55 000 - 67000

Nurse Unit Manager
SG: 30 000- 50 000
Aus: 67 000 -120 000

I didn't make up the figures, I checked.

Dun think I will have a second thought about getting the Aus citizenship next time, my original country chose to abandon me...
NameSim Chin Boo
November 29, 2006   11:46 PM PST
 
If only Mahatma Gandhi is still around, he surely would be able to enlighten all of us. And so will be Mao Tze Tong, two leaders of the World's most populated nations. It seems that their offsprings did not inherited much too.
NameSim Chin Boo
November 29, 2006   11:46 PM PST
 
If only Mahatma Gandhi is still around, he surely would be able to enlighten all of us. And so will be Mao Tze Tong, two leaders of the World's most populated nations. It seems that their offsprings did not inherited much too.
Goh B.T.
June 20, 2006   02:19 PM PDT
 
Ladies & Gentlemen,

Let me make a proposal that we Singaporeans accept the PAP's self-accentuated worth, equating their ridiculous high pay to fighting their innate urges for possible corruption, on the legal grounds that we can sack them at the shortest notice for not performing to Singaporeans' expectations. Their equation of adopting the top pays of the private sector can only be valid then.
Kenny
June 8, 2006   01:34 PM PDT
 
I see a very simple reason for paying the minister such an obscenely high salary. If you ever have the chance to meet with one of them in private, have a few words with them as a private citizen, you'll find that they are a bland, ordinary, non-descript lot that you'll forget in a second. No charisma, no leadership, no attractiveness or charm at all. But then what do you expect of yes-men? So, in order to have the citizens look up to them, they fatten their wallets. Every Singaporean respects a wealthy person, be it Ferdinand Marcos or Suharto. Nevermind if they are corrupt to the core.
Anon
June 6, 2006   09:36 PM PDT
 
The ordinary person simply has no sense of magnitude at all! And I think this is where the problem lies. The average ordinary person only thinks in terms of small change! As long as the common person cannot grasp, for example, how much $160,000.00 Per Month really is, they will be happy and contended and therefore blissful. This is because $160,000.00 is just an esoteric number which is beyond their comprehension!
gayle
June 6, 2006   12:42 PM PDT
 
No lah. Those are students with tin cans asking for small change. MPs where got small change? 100 dollar bills cannot fit into the slot of the tin can :)
teratai
June 5, 2006   04:52 PM PDT
 
I like the way you voice out your thoughts. In fact, there are lots of fund raising activities in Singapore and normally most of the weekends, organisations make use of schools. You will see students standing at MRT/Bus Interchange and some even go house to house to ask for donation...... I feel that these organisations should go to the ministers direct to ask for so called "donations" instead of asking from the public.
gayle
June 4, 2006   11:19 PM PDT
 
McCool- Nope, I wasn't invited to the cabinet swearing in ceremony. Hurt my feelings :(

Sad- Don't be sad! Thanks for your visiting and your encouragement. Do come by again and offer your opinions too. God bless.
Tip
June 4, 2006   09:43 PM PDT
 
If you don't see your comments after you've submitted, you need to do a REFRESH on the comments page itself. Then your comment will appear, so don't it submit twice.
Sad
June 4, 2006   08:05 PM PDT
 
Gayle said:

" ..Let me tell you where -my- line is. I will not lie. I will not speak untruths, or base my arguments on anything less than fact.. "

Gayle, I am old, but you're a soul who indeed deserves many (including me) prostrating and kissing the ground every 3 steps in honour of you!

Take care.
McCool
June 3, 2006   01:23 PM PDT
 
Gayle

Keep up the good thinking and writing.

As a metter of interest, were you invited to the cabinet swearing in ceremony?

Some JC students were invited demonstrate PM's challenge to and focus on youths' involvement in Singapore society.

Also, that TODAY columnist, Jeremy, was there.

Regards
PAP
June 2, 2006   04:23 PM PDT
 
And we must also ask ourselves, why can't the opposition win a GRC? Is it because they are not united? Is it because they do not have a lot of good quality candidates?
PAP
June 2, 2006   12:46 PM PDT
 
Quote 'I also wonder how would a minister perform against Low Thia Khiang or Chiam in a one to one fight and who would lose his deposit.' Unquote.

I think the minister would lose. That is why NONE of the ministers are pitching themselves against LTK and CST in a direct contest to wrest those seats back. They KNOW they would lose, but I don't think they'll lose their deposit. All PAP did was send SM there to shore up some support. Now they know the level of support they have over there without exposing themselves to vulnerability. Smart huh.





Kim
June 2, 2006   12:15 PM PDT
 
Thanks James for enlightenment. PAP is doing a good job in many areas, but their high salaries and political tactics are bugging me. Lack of transparency and "I know best" also causing concern.
NameConcerned
June 2, 2006   11:14 AM PDT
 
PAP says "I can't help but wonder why Singaporeans are such bloody hypocrites, criticize PAP yet vote them back into parliament with an overwhelming majority of seats every election. Suckers."

I can't help but wonder too how well the PAP would perform if the GRC is abolished in the next GE making all wards single member wards. Would the PAP garner such "overwhelming majority of seats" ? I doubt it.

Right now the PAP is using the GRC and high deposits to overwhelm the opposition. Not fair.

I also wonder how would a minister perform against Low Thia Khiang or Chiam in a one to one fight and who would lose his deposit.
Jame
June 2, 2006   12:37 AM PDT
 
To Kim

That's the problem, Kim. In the initial years of gaining power, a new government has to consolidate its power and usually behaves well. One exception though is Chen Shui Bian's government in Taiwan, where it can't wait to lay its hands on government coffers very soon after it has gained power. In most cases, new governments do not get carried away so soon. Usually it is after the new government has done a good job for some time that it starts to believe its own hype and cannot resist the temptation to abuse its power. It's like owning the Ring in Lord of the Rings. The temptation to abuse power is even greater if the people that the government rules, innocently or otherwise, gives it almost unlimited power.
Kim
June 1, 2006   08:50 PM PDT
 
I'm sure when MM entered politics to fight for independence, money was never in his mind. I feel he should continue to set an example of not receiving much money from politics. What about donating a big part of his salary to charity? His children are all doing well. His wife must have enough money after being a top lawyer for so long. At their age, I'm sure they don't need much and also have no need to leave $ behind for successful children. Leave an even better legacy instead.
PAP
June 1, 2006   11:09 AM PDT
 
Oops, typo, sorry. Anyway, I'm tiring of this debate. Won't change anything anyway. Their pay would still be exorbitant. If you think you're overpaying for their services, don't vote for them next time. I can't help but wonder why Singaporeans are such bloody hypocrites, criticize PAP yet vote them back into parliament with an overwhelming majority of seats every election. Suckers.
gayle
June 1, 2006   12:29 AM PDT
 
Aiyoh, at least get his name right :) Yeo Cheow Tong, not Yeo Chiao Tong.
Kim
May 31, 2006   10:52 PM PDT
 
How much does PAP think one can earn as Chief of a private hospital? More than a minister's pay? If an ex-minister gets a "lucrative" job, I think it's more for connections and inside knowledge of govt's thinking. Without service in the cabinet, his worth is much much less!! So, it's the previous job that helps him now!
Jame
May 31, 2006   06:11 PM PDT
 
To PAP

There is really no point talking to you...you are just like PAP...
PAP
May 31, 2006   03:58 PM PDT
 
Because he had already served for so many years without high pay. That's why he is getting his rewards now. Khaw has been the CEO of three different public hospitals and have restructured them successfully in his capacity. With his experience and contacts, he could very well join the management of private hospitals local or overseas. Yeo Chiao Tong did not make a very successful minister, yet he is returning to the private sector with a lucrative job already waiting for him. The same goes for other ministers as well. Don't forget, they were the best brains of their time, scholars, ivy league and oxbridge grads, first class honours, masters and Phds in their CV. Come on, do you seriously think they can't get a job elsewhere? It is tremendous credit to the Singapore government being able to keep them for so long that you ignorant people think they can't go anywhere else. It is just that they do not chose to waste their time arguing with you about their pay.
Kim
May 31, 2006   01:57 PM PDT
 
To PAP,

What makes you so sure that they would succeed if they leave civil service and join private sector. Maybe they cannot fit at all. You only mention Balaji, ok, Ng Eng Hean too, any more???? Khaw was Perm Sec before politics. Could he have gone private at around 50. Now how much does he earn now? If he could "serve" the nation for so many years w/o high pay, why need to pay him so much now, just because he is now a politician and minister???
Jame
May 30, 2006   11:39 PM PDT
 
To PAP :

What's relevant is not the number of people served; what is relevant is the average income of these people. That's why private neurosurgeons earn a lot; they serve a small number of rich people. Conversely hawkers generally earn less; they serve a big number of average income earners. If what is relevant is the number of people served, then I cant imagine how much the chairman of the Chinese Communist Party and the President of the USA should earn....
NameConcerned
May 30, 2006   09:26 PM PDT
 
Kwayteowman :

Due to your reticence on the justification of the PM’s basic salary I shall ask you again : Can you please justify for any PM a basic salary which is more than the combined basic salaries of the presidents of the US, China, Russia, Indonesia and India which together make up nearly half of the world’s population? If you can then you are either a very generous man indeed or you are a Faustian peon who believes in Dr Seuss, Disneyland and Mother Goose.

Kwayteowman then goes on the charm offensive:

“Thanks for pointing out that Bush costs the American tax payers US$50 million and our PM only(?) cost us US$1.2 million. Actually, I also dunno how you got the US$50 million estimate. Seems disporportionally high actually, but nevermind.”

No need to thank me. This is not a national school debate. Since no one knows how much both Bush and PM cost the taxpayers I decided to give Bush a disadvantage by increasing his total cost to the American taxpayers to US$50 million. Despite this the PM’s cost to the tax payers is 304 % higher than Bush’s. In fact even if we increase Bush’s total cost to the American taxpayers to US$100 million, the PM’s cost to the taxpayers will still be 152% higher !! That how out of whack the numbers are.

kwayteowman then grasps at straws :

“You forgot to mention that Bush sent his troops to invade Iraq and racked up another multi-multi-billion dollar bill for the American tax payers.”

No I did not. I left it out because it would not be fair to you to put it in. Yes it’s a fact that Bush lied about WMD and then invaded Iraq and added, as you put it “ another multi-multi billion dollar bill for the American tax payers”. For your info, experts estimate the cost in treasures and blood will eventually go up to as high as US$1000 billion. BUT lest we forget, by invading Iraq the Bush administration has a de facto claim on the 110 billion barrels of high quality crude oil in Iraq, which is now worth over US$7900 billion, a net gain of US$6900 billion ! With Saddam out of the way and a puppet govt in place, all the Americans need to do is to create money out of thin air by printing more green papers and then exchange them for oil, without which America’s 230 million cars and SUVs would grind to a halt. America has only 5% of the world’s pop but it is consuming 25% of the world’s fossil fuel. That’s why Iran with its hugh oil reserves is next on the shopping (read looting) list and not North Korea which has no oil but a lot of WMD and starving folks !

kwayteowman then makes a surprised qualification :

“The KTM is not an accountant, so really cannot understand why you think that the pay of a world leader should be determined on a per capita basis.”

Show me where I said that ! You said ““I'm not trying to defend the current salary benchmarks per se, but something should be said about looking at a salary that's commensurate with the size of the job.”

So can you honestly say Bush has a lesser job responsibility than the PM?

kwayteowman then turns irrational :

“Suppose the KTM agrees with you. From the fact that America's population is 75 times that of Singapore's, there are two possible implications:
1. Our PM should be paid 1/75 of Bush, i.e. $5,333 per year.
2. If they are paid the same, then Bush should be working 75 times harder than our PM. Two possibilities:
(a) Our PM works 12 hours a day, Bush should work 900 hours a day; or
(b) Bush works 12 hours a day, then our PM needs to work 10 minutes a day and can spend the rest of the day playing golf. :-)”

Talking nonsense means you are running out of ideas.

kwayteowman makes a professional statement though he said he is not an accountant :

‘In any case hor, to compute total earnings accurately, you have to take into account future earnings, suitably discounted. Someone highlighted that Bush commands a $400K engagement fee per talk after he steps down. You think our PM can make the same meh?”

Hey in case you don’t know already “W” is so dumb that the only engagement he is likely to get after he finishes his second term is to read nursery rhymes to kids in a kindergarten. See his dumb quotes below :

http://supak.com/bush.htm

But lest we forget when our MPs finish three terms they get a very generous pension too. Now lets see if you earn US$1,239,240 million as your last pay and you have finished three terms as an MP then if the pension is 75% of that, it’s a lot of money especially if you live to 90 years of age.

kwayteowman changes the subject (read goal posts) :

“Finally, are the salaries of CEOs in private corporations necessarily proportional to the turnover of the companies they run? Doesn't seem like it leh. You're making very little sense to the KTM, or perhaps the KTM is not educated enough to understand the sense you are trying to make. :-)”

Show me where I made any reference to the pay of a CEO.

We are comparing the basic salary of the PM with the basic salary of Bush, the president of the world’s only Superpower and you are not making sense at all.

But since you brought it up, in my opinion, the salaries of CEOs should be benchmarked with other CEOs of similar size companies in the same industry and the salaries of the PM should ideally be benchmarked with the other PMs or Presidents in the developed nations, not with the captains of industry .

kwayteowman finally shows his class and good breeding :

“In any case hor, the KTM has no wish to be offensive. If offense was taken, the KTM asks for your kind indulgence.”

No offence meant and no offence taken. It’s my pleasure to debate with you. :)
PAP
May 30, 2006   05:08 PM PDT
 
To Jame:
Neurosurgeons do not treat only the rich.

The government serves the local population yes. But they serve over FOUR million people. A neurosurgeon rarely treats more than 40 people in his lifetime. If a hawker serves this many people you won't be complaining if he earns more than a million a year right?

Harp less less n less
May 30, 2006   04:39 PM PDT
 
Ministers' high salary is already one frayed string from constant harping ... no harm to continuing and stopping altogether. Hey hey !!The Garmen of the day decides. Let's respect. The system works, the meritocracy, the law & order, the security, economics, etc etc. This is one great country and very importantly, it is cruising ahead. What must be, must be.......until one day the tide returns....until one day the people who rule are brave enough to sacrifice more, unreluctant to take less.
Jame
May 30, 2006   04:31 PM PDT
 
I think comparing ministerial pay with what ministers could earn if they were in the private sector as, say top lawyers or doctors, is in principle wrong. If you are a top lawyer or top surgeon, you earn millions of dollars yearly, because the clients who engage you are invariably rich people or big corporations in the former case, and rich individuals in the latter case. Lawyers or doctors who serve the men in the street or small corporations are unlikely (in fact they dont) to earn millions or dollars a year. Ministers should be compared, if at all, to lawyers or doctors who serve the men in the street, because they make up the overwhelming majority of the population. Hence ministerial incomes should be pegged to the incomes of the average professional, rather than the TOP few professionals in every TOP profession.
PAP
May 30, 2006   01:50 PM PDT
 
Dr. Balaji Sadasivan is THE top neurosurgeon from Asia. He took a major pay cut to run for office in politics.

The other politicians could have easily went to the private sector. They just chose to stay. Please be reminded that with their qualifications, being a minister is not the most lucrative, stress-free job they can get. They would have left if not for their commitment to people and country.

In addition, most of them spend their lives in civil service serving the people before being noticed and roped into politics. Hence their lack of an external high-paying private sector job. They are those who chose not to take up more lucrative offers overseas and break their bonds. They are those who are committed enough to stay and give their entire professional career to serving the people. Before your criticisms start coming in, just think about all these points. They are paid high, yes, but it is worth it.
sirius
May 30, 2006   12:43 PM PDT
 
CPI doesnt only measures the propensity of government official being corrupt, but the tendency to be corrupt as a whole.
Kim
May 30, 2006   11:54 AM PDT
 
One of the reasons given for high mininsters' pay is to alleviate the sacrifices successful private sector citizens have to bear and thus make it easier to convince them to enter politics. However, so far, I cannot count many ministers from the private sectors. Infact most are from govt or govt-linked companies. So, when they become ministers, it's a big increase on their income. Maybe Gayle can do some research on this and compare income before and after.
Nick
May 29, 2006   04:41 PM PDT
 
Gayle, I've read your post and it proved to be an amazing read indeed.

I'm compelled to write a reply from the perspective of a non-Singaporean. Actually I'm your neighbour up north and frankly speaking, the minority groups there really look up to Singapore and what it has achieved.

However, after reading all these critcisms on the Singapore government, I can't help but be dismayed. It is true that Malaysian ministers are paid much less than Singaporean ministers, however, I would trade a Malaysian minister for a Singaporean minister anytime, pay and all. I am a student like Gayle and am very concerned about the political well-being of my country. First off because there simply isn't a level playing field in Malaysia and the minority groups are discriminated. But I'm not here to talk about the injustices of my government.

I believe that 'the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence'. Hence, it is extremely unfair to compare the Singapore government to that of the US or any other government. We should always strive for the better, but do not lose sight of the things that we currently have a turn into sour grapes and ungrateful asses. It could have turned out much much worse... believe me.
Thinker
May 29, 2006   12:20 AM PDT
 
I think we should outsource our ministers job to Mr Manmohan Singh and he is happy to accept only $10 000 a month. In this way we can have a cheap govt and the money saved can be donated to the NKF.
passerby
May 28, 2006   11:25 PM PDT
 
I just want to add my two cents worth in favour of high salaries for ministers.
1. FYI, it is pegged to the mean of a few selected occupations in the economy of singapore. The logic, i have heard, is so that ministers can get the same pay in the government as they can in the private sector. Hence, if as CEO they could have earned more, as an economist let me tell you we are just covering their "opportunity cost".
2. some of you mentioned that the poor earn less than the ministers pay. This is only natural. As an economist, this is only to be expected, so that is a non sequitur. Practically all the productive people in the world earn substantially high real wages vis a vis the so called poor people. FYI, the top lawyers are paid at least triple compared to the average lawyers, but they dont work three times harder.
3. Singaporean ministers have to give up part of their practice, part of their pay, which i heard can be hundreds of thousands a month, in order to do their job in government. So it is not true that they earn two complete rates of pay.
4. some people rightly pointed out, that the US government has more perks than us. That is correct, and when you take note of the total costs of keeping the US administration in power vis a vis their effectiveness in running the nation.... i rest my case.
I am only a passerby and these are my views based on my training.
recruit ong
May 28, 2006   04:44 PM PDT
 
Curious wrote:

Kwayteowman,
Thank you very much. Your Kway Teow is shiok, so to speak. No one could have expressed it more eloquently. Yes, let's move on to more important issues such as how to improve the lives of commoners.

------------------------------------

Anyone see the circular logic here? Have these "top talents" imrpove the lives of the commoners, or have they fatten the fat cats instead? Note that the rich has gotten richer and the poor poorer, and the income gap has widened.
PAP-neutral
May 28, 2006   03:32 PM PDT
 
This sure beats the hell out of xia xue's blog. A fan of yours already...
Jame
May 28, 2006   03:22 PM PDT
 
One point that many people have missed out on is that the impact of high ministerial pay in Singapore does not stop there. It's not just the pay of 10 plus ministers. The immediate impact is the incomes of senior staff of the civil service, statutory boards, GLCs, NTUC and other government-related bodies have also gone up substantially. Basically there are thousands of people in the government or government-related bodies who routinely receive 6-figure salaries and 6 months or more bonuses every year, even during so-called bad years. It is no coincidence that TT Durai paid himself 12 months' bonus between 2003 and 2005 ...this is quite a common practice in the civil service for senior officers.
Curious
May 28, 2006   01:44 PM PDT
 
Kwayteowman,

Thank you very much. Your Kway Teow is shiok, so to speak. No one could have expressed it more eloquently. Yes, let's move on to more important issues such as how to improve the lives of commoners.
kwayteowman
May 28, 2006   01:09 PM PDT
 
Curious:

I absolutely agree with you that it's a perception problem more than anything else. I actually don't earn anywhere close to a million dollars either, and I've also grappled with the question about whether CEOs, doctors and lawyers should earn obscene amounts of money too. :-)

What I have been trying to do is to bring some balance on this issue, 'cos it's important for people to realize that at the end of the day, it's this gut feeling rather than a fact that sometime is necessarily wrong -- and truly, it's a bit irrational.

The reason why CEOs, doctors and lawyers can earn obscene amounts of money is that there's a price for all jobs and it so happens that those jobs command those kinds of market rates. That's what it means to live in a capitalist society. At the same time, it is because CEOs, doctors and lawyers can make so much money, it gives hope to the rest that it's possible to make a lot of money too. Of course, most will fail, but tough luck. They call this life.

That said, are the jobs that pay less thereby less important? Just imagine what will happen if the people from the waste disposal company or if the bus drivers go on strike for two weeks.

Even if we cut the Ministers' pay by half, what good does that do for the country? Their total pay is insignificant compared to the nation budget and even when compared to the recent $2.5 billion Progress Package. Why are we arguing over something that doesn't improve the lot of our people? If the Ministers are paid less, maybe the people will feel more shiok, but their lives will improve meh?

If the people think that the PAP Garmen is too expensive for their tastes and they want a Garmen on the cheap, vote the PAP out at the next GE loh. Strangely enough, the opposition also never tell us how much they will pay themselves if they form the next Garmen. Do we want to do it like a fish market? All the political parties state their price and then the people vote for the one that they think gives them the most bang for the buck?? :-P

If the people are of the opinion that the Garmen has not done a good enough job, i.e. by not controlling the costs of living, then please lah, by all means hammer the Garmen on the rising costs of living.

It has always eluded me why people do not adopt the following tack instead: since you are paid $X, you should do this for me. Lobby for things that matter and/or improves their lives can or not?

I promised myself that this will be my final comment on this matter. My message is very simple: if people want to get upset over the Garmen, please get upset for the right (and concrete) reasons. Getting upset over inconsequential matters is waste of everybody's time, and takes away the focus from more important issues.

The Ministers end up wasting time defending their pay instead of trying to solve more serious problems (like controlling the costs of living); and even if the detractors win and get the Ministers to cut their pay, buys us nothing also. *sigh*
Curious
May 28, 2006   12:03 PM PDT
 
The reasons people feel upset over the high pay of cabinet ministers are many. In the various comments so far, most compare the pay to what presidents and prime ministers in other countries are getting. The argument is that the "market price" is much lower. Some comments argue against the rationalisation given for high pay such as corruption prevention and personal sacrifice. I feel that the comments so far have missed one major reason. Most lower income earners, whether employees or self-employed, are upset simply because the pay level is so much above the national average. The high pays of CEOs, doctors and lawyers are obscene. Should they earn so much? While the pay of CEOs are allowed to spiral out of control, employees get a slap on the face whenever they ask for their fair share. What kind of message does the government send to the people, even if inadvertently, when the pay of civil servants is pegged to the "market price" of CEOs? One message seems to say that it doesn't care about the high pay disparity in Singapore. I applaud the financial sacrifices made by our cabinet ministers. But it simply isn't enough.
kwayteowman
May 28, 2006   03:55 AM PDT
 
NameConcerned:

Thanks for pointing out that Bush costs the American tax payers US$50 million and our PM only(?) cost us US$1.2 million. Actually, I also dunno how you got the US$50 million estimate. Seems disporportionally high actually, but nevermind.

You forgot to mention that Bush sent his troops to invade Iraq and racked up another multi-multi-billion dollar bill for the American tax payers.

The KTM is not an accountant, so really cannot understand why you think that the pay of a world leader should be determined on a per capita basis.

Suppose the KTM agrees with you. From the fact that America's population is 75 times that of Singapore's, there are two possible implications:
1. Our PM should be paid 1/75 of Bush, i.e. $5,333 per year.
2. If they are paid the same, then Bush should be working 75 times harder than our PM. Two possibilities:
(a) Our PM works 12 hours a day, Bush should work 900 hours a day; or
(b) Bush works 12 hours a day, then our PM needs to work 10 minutes a day and can spend the rest of the day playing golf. :-)

In any case hor, to compute total earnings accurately, you have to take into account future earnings, suitably discounted. Someone highlighted that Bush commands a $400K engagement fee per talk after he steps down. You think our PM can make the same meh?

Finally, are the salaries of CEOs in private corporations necessarily proportional to the turnover of the companies they run? Doesn't seem like it leh. You're making very little sense to the KTM, or perhaps the KTM is not educated enough to understand the sense you are trying to make. :-)

In any case hor, the KTM has no wish to be offensive. If offense was taken, the KTM asks for your kind indulgence.
Zack
May 28, 2006   02:52 AM PDT
 
Firstly, the Enron scandal has an accounting facet, but it was directly implicated in the california energy crisis, so the two cases are not "completely different and unrelated", as you claimed.

"The USA is commonly agreed to lack widespread poverty. The USSR, in contrast, is commonly agreed to have had widespread poverty"

I don't know where you get your "commonly agreed" facts but if you use GDP per capital as your definition of poverty, then maybe it is true! But we know GDP per capital is as misleading as anything given the wide and growing inequality in the USA. And when most resources are managed by people who has an interest to fill their pockets first, I wonder if the lower than average citizen who has nothing to offer to these folks with labor or capital would get anything? Moreover, taking your comparison as is, your claim is comparing "widespread poverty" as if it is some gold standard that can be compared across different contexts. Wouldn't you say that not having an Ipod in the USA when everyone has it is associated with some notion of poverty while not having a (newer) TV or able to go to McDonald's once in their lifetime in Russia is today their notion of poverty? While I am not trying to establish any standardized means to test poverty across contexts, I am trying to show that there are no agreeable ones between your examples.

I don't know Sen's work but I did hear sometime ago that in the market economy, in order to keep prices where they are, sometimes they dump grain into the ocean or grapes to the dumpster. So much for distribution problem.

Enron: not "he", but "they". Mr Lay and Mr Skilling. I believe I have shown that Enron was implicated in the california energy crisis above.

You said: "No. However, it means that the discussion is ultimately pointless beyond the first statement, that is to say, "I believe A has flaws"

I disagree with you. I may not have anything to say, but my ignorance may direct you to say something. In cases like that, I learn from you and you perhaps realize that there is such a question or statement in the world. Whether you feel that is learning is up to your own judgment. So it is not "pointless" as claimed, at least from my own perspective.

"Terrible manners"?? I don't see how you can call the Enron debacle "terrible manners" when they are formally indicted on these charges. People don't go to jail for not saying 'thank you' when rendered a satisfactory service of some sort, which may constitute my understanding of what "terrible manners" are!

You said:"Not at all. Do you have a better system?"

I have always admired the Nordic systems. Though my thin reading of it has enlightened me to the fact that it is a combination of their cultural history and to a certain extent 'racial' homogeneity, and therefore may not work elsewhere, I just feel that the quality of life offered there surpasses most systems which I have viscerally experienced as a person. People don't have to work all the time to save up enough for their children's education or themselves in old age and so on. But this is my private notion of my own right for some considered private good, so others who read this need not share my sentiments.

One need not coerced others in order to be irresponsible. I promise you that I will see you at 1030 at the busstop, but I did not show up eventually and neither did I call. I did not coerced you into meeting with me (i.e. for we meet because we mutually have something to say to each other) but I was just being irresponsible not to meet or call. Just for the record, how many "irresponsible" instances have you seen in your life time and how many "antitrust" lawsuits were carried out? In most cases, unless something goes extremely wrong, or perceived to be too fishy, they go unnoticed until they started smelling. Enron case in point.

You said:"...if market mechanisms don't work in that situation, use another framework that works. It's not like capitalist economic theories can explain how to design a working space elevator. How to finance one, certaintly, but.."

Sure, I would agree that no one model should have the monopoly right for every explanation and mechanism. That said, the market mechanism has a psychological effect as well: for we begin to meet all underlying assumptions by pegging them to a dollar sign. F.A. Hayek, once said that prices are market proxies to cope with our own ignorance. What's the value of your life? Your earnings plus what could be earned after a certain date? Then how about people who have no earnings? Value of life at zero dollars? Collectively, I don't think we have an answer for this yet, and this points to the fact that even if we would like another framework to augment the inadequacies of this one, it is not easy at all. And of course, I am not saying that you are claiming this to be easy.

I think Merton and Scholes idea was slightly more complicated than traders doing arbitrage. As I am not a nobel laureate in financial economics, I don't think I can explain this theory in the glory of all its underlying mechanics. So last word on this: it was obvious they were not capable of pulling it off. If they did, they wouldn't need a 3.5 billions dollars bill out.
NameConcerned
May 27, 2006   11:45 PM PDT
 
kwayteowman says Concerned “You're not making any sense. What matters is the total cost to the tax payers.”

But its kwayteowman who don’t make any sense as he has not done his homework. If it pleases him lets do the maths and see what is the estimated total cost to the tax payers, using the exchange rates of 1.6 and 1.58 for 2005 and 2006 respectively and a generous estimated perks for Bush and none for PM. Please note the true “total cost” to the tax payers cannot be accurately ascertained :

Bush basic salary =US$400,000
Bush’s perks =US$49.6 million (Air Force One, W. House, Camp David etc)
Total Bush cost =US$50 million (A very generous estimate)

PM basic salary =US$1,239,240 million (Gayle’s estimate)
Total PM cost =US$1,239,240 million (no perks added)

America’s 2005 tax receipts =US$2052.8 billion
Source : US Dept of Treasury

Singapore’s 2005 tax receipts =US$17 billion
Source : Singapore Budget2006

Bush’s estimated cost to tax payers =50,000,000/2052,800,000,000 x 100 =0.0024 %

PM’s estimated cost to tax payers =1,239,240/17,000,000,000 x 100 =0.00729 %

Conclusions :

PM’s basic salary is higher than Bush’s by 307% (Gayle’s figures)

PM’s cost to tax payers is higher than Bush ‘s by 304 % (estimated)

If anyone has better estimates please post them.

Kwayteowman goes on the defensive :

“I'm not trying to defend the current salary benchmarks per se, but something should be said about looking at a salary that's commensurate with the size of the job.”

Ok, take a good look then at the size of the population & GDP below, ie the size of the job.

America’s population = 300 million
Singapore’s population = 4 million (1.33% of America’s pop)

America’s 2005 GDP = US$11,500 billion
Singapore’s 2005 GDP = US$114 billion (1% of American GDP)

kwayteowman goes on the offensive :

“My point to you is this: to think that public servants should be paid less than a fair wage is inane. What is fair is debateable, but given that the responsibilities of the Ministers seem to be commensurate with that of the CEOs, the current numbers are not completely out of whack.”

Get a life kwayteowman, I am not saying public servants should not be paid a fair wage at all. The figures above show the current numbers are indeed out of whack.

If kwayteowman can justify a basic salary of US$1,239,240 which is arguably more than the combined basic salaries of the presidents of the USA, China, Russia, Indonesia and India, which together make up nearly half the world’s population, then he needs to recalibrate his rose-coloured pair of blinkers. :)
Ril
May 27, 2006   10:06 PM PDT
 
"Poverty is empirically observable either in a market economy or 'communist countries', so to allude to the possibility that the market economy can dispel poverty, and then perhaps dispel hunger is at best an 'theology' (which you deny somewhere down the line) or at worst, dreamy."

The USA is commonly agreed to lack widespread poverty. The USSR, in contrast, is commonly agreed to have had widespread poverty (and it's only getting worse, post-communism). Is it a lack of resources? Certaintly not. It's just the way the resources are managed and used. Not, 'dispel', rather, 'bring down to as low a level as possible, with consistent results'. If you're familiar with Amartya K Sen's work on poverty, he demonstrates that famine occurs due to distribution problems, not production problems (That is to say, there is no lack of food, but the food simply doesn't get to hungry people). Now, I disagree with his theories of ethics and his other political work, but this is mostly true from what I can tell.


"this company was selling power out of state at a low price to an outside middleman from whom they then repurchase and resell back at a much higher price when the crisis worsened. Would you consider this as manipulating the market with the information you have to do so? There were other scams but one thing is clear, fixing the books was only the icing on the cake."

That's the california energy crisis, not the enron scandal. The scandal was about the accounting aspects, not their energy market gaming. He was convicted of charges unrelated to that. The accounting fraud was a completely different and unrelated case.

Gaming the market is legitimate practice, though not particularly demonstrating that you're a good person, for most definitions of 'good'. Personally speaking, I'm not fond of that aspect, but it's not relevant - it's a signal, all the same. Insider trading sets up not-false signals if you know how to read the market, on the other hand. It's a lot harder to, but the signals are still there. Still, it's arguably creating false signals to a certain extent. The accountancy fraud created a situation in which the crash-to-come would be extremely harsh, not a gradual one where stockholders could exit the market at a reasonable pace.


"...does not negate on his or her right to speak? To speak openly does not mean that a sound solution must be offered."

No. However, it means that the discussion is ultimately pointless beyond the first statement, that is to say, "I believe A has flaws. These flaws are Y and Z." You can't progress from there without offering alternatives. "System B is better", or, "Y could be fixed by doing X." (As for 'right to speak'? You have the ability to speak. Whether or not you should exercise your right to speak depends on the situation. (And no implications are meant by this statement.))


"I believe I have answered your question that Enron's crimes lie beyond the accounting ones so that's that."

They're not crimes. It's just terrible manners.


"But this is not to say, as you implied, that there is no theology with laissez-faire systems."

That reading of my statements is wrong. It is saying this - It is a flawed system. It is, however, based on the current evidence, the best currently possible system. There are no doctrinal points in this. There is room for expansion, for change, for even getting rid of it.


"If you truly mean that the purest form of laissez-faire system is the "best", I disagree."

False reading of statements, see above. And below.


"There are many things which the free-market system fails frequently, and especially with the environment, which is shared by everyone."

At no point have I said, "Even the slightest amount of regulation will lead to the earth cracking open and the legions of hell destroying the world". Rather, the above can be derived to find "Regulation, when appropriate and effective, is preferred to not-effective systems, all else being equal."


"Given that you have alluded to its nature as "best" even with the frameworks' problematics, wouldn't you agree that your belief is both theological if not doctrinal?"

Not at all. Do you have a better system?


"Wouldn't you agree that this is an irresponsible view on this issue?"

Not at all. They're not coerced into it. If they don't think it's a fair market price, there are two solutions: Bring them up in court for antitrust (That is to say, bother your MP.) or bring them up in court for fraud.


"I appreciate your bold stance on this but the litigable society is frankly only one for those who has the means to hire an attorney who would also assess if the case is likely to pay their rent and mortgage."

Then approach it from the criminal angle! Try to get them for antitrust.


"On your Enron point: perhaps you are mistaken, when I mean power, I mean electricity. "

So was I, except you seem to be talking about the California energy crisis while I'm talking about the enron accounting scandal.


"My definition of "fake": fake means the non-authenticity of X. So what seems to me as my friend calling out to me (a signal) which after investigation was only a bird chirping and my imagination at work is a fake signal, therefore, in my own definition, a noise."

That, in a financial context, would be "We are making profits of X" when reality is "We are making losses of Y". Simply saying "We will sell it to you at Z" is not a false signal. In a monopoly model - even though it's not at average cost = demand, which creates the most surplus possible without the firm deciding to give up and liquidate due to making losses (though MC=D is the most total surplus, but they make losses). It may not be maximum possible surplus, but it is the absolute truth. It is simply saying, "We will sell this to you at Z". Now, if they said, "100% of customers are satisfied!" that may be a false signal. Buying and reselling at a higher price simply says "We are gaming the market. The price is now Z." It's perfectly true.


"because we would eventually be stumped by failures that the market does not cater to."

...if market mechanisms don't work in that situation, use another framework that works. It's not like capitalist economic theories can explain how to design a working space elevator. How to finance one, certaintly, but...


"It was possibly the most sensible (and very profitable for a while too) thing to do in the fullest most assumed laissez-faire framework, yet..."

Eh. It was arbitrage. If you can pull it off, it's quite good. Not the most sensible, though.

And, really. Russian government bonds? Of all things. If they could have held out a while longer (which they couldn't, since to make decent gains in arbitrage you need a lot of resources, financed by borrowing), they'd probably go back into making gains. It's a temporary situation caused by market panic.
Mark
May 27, 2006   06:23 PM PDT
 
To Troodon:

I apologise for phrasing my comments the wrong way. What i meant was that the money would have to be high to compensate the full-time politicians and office holders for their loss of salary and earnings if they had ventured into the private sector. Larry and Sergey is also a good point, but, as far as i know, you can't pay the prime minister or government officials with owning parts of the economy of a country. Maybe we could pay them in Economic Restructuring Shares?

Frankly, people who want to serve for the sake of service are growing increasingly rare. Most people in the civil service, if one asks them why they work at the job they do, would mouth the appropriate words. However, how many of them really feel like that? I think not many. Furthermore, the culture of today is more of "what can my country do for me?" rather than "what can i do for my country?" Without the pay or the relative job security provided by the Civil Service, few people would join it, and the numbers would decrease as this 'apathied' generation grows up.

My purpose of that previous post was not because i am a staunch supporter of the PAP. In fact, I would have voted for the WP myself if they had bothered to try contesting my GRC. As it stood, it was a PAP walkover. I merely wanted to point out some contrasting points with Gayle's original post to (cliche) provide a balanced viewpoint.
Zack
May 27, 2006   05:30 PM PDT
 
Ril,

Wow that was quick.

First thing first. I don't think you are answering the 'efficiency' question. What does it mean to be 'efficient' and to put food consistently on the table in the long run? I simply don't see the connection. Do you mean 'probable' instead of 'efficient'? Poverty is empirically observable either in a market economy or 'communist countries', so to allude to the possibility that the market economy can dispel poverty, and then perhaps dispel hunger is at best an 'theology' (which you deny somewhere down the line) or at worst, dreamy.

Perhaps what you have heard about Enron so far is just the story of 'working' the books, so to speak. As far as I know, and this is based on mass media as I am no insider on this matter for goodness's sake, this company was selling power out of state at a low price to an outside middleman from whom they then repurchase and resell back at a much higher price when the crisis worsened. Would you consider this as manipulating the market with the information you have to do so? There were other scams but one thing is clear, fixing the books was only the icing on the cake.

To your (1): Nope, I don't have an idea because it is not my career to patch holes in the problems of market economy. I am merely voicing out that they are prevalent. I am sure you would agree that when someone has no solutions, this fact does not negate on his or her right to speak? To speak openly does not mean that a sound solution must be offered. I believe I have answered your question that Enron's crimes lie beyond the accounting ones so that's that.

To your (2): well, since you did not really answer the efficiency question, it is hard to say if you are restating the original point you made, or reframing it in a different way. Sure, as I said, I have concurred with you that it is not the best system for alot of reasons as depicted. But this is not to say, as you implied, that there is no theology with laissez-faire systems. If you truly mean that the purest form of laissez-faire system is the "best", I disagree. There are many things which the free-market system fails frequently, and especially with the environment, which is shared by everyone. Given that you have alluded to its nature as "best" even with the frameworks' problematics, wouldn't you agree that your belief is both theological if not doctrinal?

You said, "If people are still willing to pay for it that's their problem". Wouldn't you agree that this is an irresponsible view on this issue? We are not talking about BMWs here but electricity, or something which people really need to get by (you might argue that BMWs share the same demand inelasticity but I do not mean this). I appreciate your bold stance on this but the litigable society is frankly only one for those who has the means to hire an attorney who would also assess if the case is likely to pay their rent and mortgage.

On your Enron point: perhaps you are mistaken, when I mean power, I mean electricity.

My definition of "fake": fake means the non-authenticity of X. So what seems to me as my friend calling out to me (a signal) which after investigation was only a bird chirping and my imagination at work is a fake signal, therefore, in my own definition, a noise.

You said: "Doesn't follow. You're saying, 'Because there is a flaw, we cannot use this system.', again."
Nope, I was saying that the model is flawed, therefore we should not use it as an ultimate explanation, not "use this system" as you depicted it to be. We may use a flawed system in practice, but we cannot use this as an ultimate explanation as the "best" accounts for every query we encounter to explain them away by the market mechanics, because we would eventually be stumped by failures that the market does not cater to. On this, I was assuming from your previous response that you were employing it as an ultimate explanation, and perhaps this was not warranted.

"It's a sensible strategy that pays off on the whole." Haha: ever heard of the Long Term Capital Management debacle? It was possibly the most sensible (and very profitable for a while too) thing to do in the fullest most assumed laissez-faire framework, yet...

Okay: I think I can see how the ministers' pay is decided. I just asked the question to clarify your belief claim.
Ril
May 27, 2006   02:59 PM PDT
 
"I love "efficiency" arguments. Efficiency for whom, may I ask?"

Efficient in the sense that there's consistent food on the table in the long run. Consider the poverty in formerly communist (and currently, too) countries. This is not 'happy capitalist utopia, yay'. This is 'Well, people aren't starving, that's better than people starving'.

"Sure, I would agree wholly with you that it is not perfect. But saying that it is not perfect does not mean that (1) one cannot see loop holes in it and comment upon this, or even, like Enron's corrupted act in a deregulated power market, take advantage of this (Enron is not a monopoly as you implied) and (2) one can conclude that it is the best system, especially if one does not say to whom the efficiency is served! (i.e best for whom? the rocks and trees and oxygen atoms?)"

You're not making sense here. I'm implying nothing about Enron at all. Consider my points: Firstly, monopoly pricing is a system in which the market is directly manipulated by the firm. Secondly, Enron is not manipulating the market in this manner; rather, it is resorting to outright fraud to do so. There is no implication.

Saying that it is not perfect does not lead to 1. Market mechanisms are imperfect, but currently the best model. You fail to address the point - you are saying, "This system is flawed! Therefore one must reject it.". I see no alternatives being proposed. Do you have a better idea? As for 1: Certaintly. Can one fix those holes? If you have an idea, please state it. As for taking advantage of those holes, it was accounting fraud. You can pull off accounting fraud in any system - the more planned an economy, the easier to do so. Note statistics in China. As for 2, there is no conclusion that it is the best system. There is only the conclusion that it is, at the current moment, the best possible general framework to use. If circumstances change, or better systems emerge... Unlike Marxist theology, this is wholly non-doctrinal. Based on the evidence and the current alternatives this is the best, that's the only claim. Not 'it is inevitable that capitalism will give way to socialism', not 'capitalism is holy and divine', just, 'it is currently the most workable, given the current available data'.

"It is of course worth what the people will give you for it, but what the people will give you for it is not necessarily determined by the people, but sometimes by engineered attempts to make the price, for example, in Enron's case."

If people are still willing to pay for it that's their problem. If it's based on faulty data, that's their problem too. If it's based on insufficient data, since the other data was covered up by /fraud/, as in the case of Enron, well...then you sue them for damages.

"The demand was perhaps inelastic in that case, but this does not take away the burden from proponents of the market system in coming up with more responsible "regulations" on the problems faced by a deregulated power market."

The enron issue was about /stockholders/. They went bankrupt and their stock prices fell to 30 cents from 90 dollars (USD). Not power. It's abstract from the power market. Accounting fraud covered up their losses, there was massive insider trading, it's an issue of finance and the stock market, not of people having overpriced energy. In fact, you could treat it as "Firm A practices accounting fraud, driving its stock prices very high up. Firm A goes bankrupt." Unrelated.


"It is too difficult to argue on what is a signal and a noise if this is your position. Well, my stance is clear: it may look like a signal to you but it is a noise to me if I define it as a fake signal."

Define 'fake'.


"What I wanted to show is that Enron is a perfect case study of how greedy and corrupted folks can profit unethically while relying on the full mechanics of the market economy"

The market economy is based on unobscured information. Systematic accounting fraud creates false information and hides true information, which sends misleading signals to people trading in their shares. And, fine, suppose I accept that it's not related to ministerial salaries.

Well, /what about the salaries, then?/


"hence undermining any effort in using the market economy as the ultimate explanation for policies or social beliefs."

Doesn't follow. You're saying, 'Because there is a flaw, we cannot use this system.', again. What is your alternative model? Can it produce results? Is it even possible to implement? To continue, one flaw does not necessarily mean that the entire system is flawed. This is not Popperian falsification of scientific theories. It just means that the system's not perfect. This is not hard science. On the balance of things, though, the market economy works. The other blue-chip stocks are still running fine. Kuwait invested heavily in blue-chip stocks to gain dividends for when their oil ran out. It's a sensible strategy that pays off on the whole.

Also, using the market economy to explain certain policies merely standardises the various explanations into a single framework, making the whole thing easier to follow. It's the same explanation viewed through different lenses - if you can find one lens that fits most of it, it's helpful for theoretical purposes.

Such as this.


"Just to indulge in your claim a little more, "we believe that ministers are worth X", is that faith or is that a conclusion drawn from the available data?"

That is, as I understand it, the position of the current Singapore administration when it decides how much to pay cabinet members. Which is presumably drawn from the available data, that is to say, how much do they work? What does their job involve? How much risk is there? What responsibilities do they have? And so on.
Tabitha Ong
May 27, 2006   01:56 PM PDT
 
I believe good ol' boy W is paid USD$400,000.00 a year. <a href="http://www.lib.umich.edu/govdocs/fedprssal.html ">here</a>.

This is a fantastic post. Very comforting to know that there are people in Singapore who can articulate such disection of politics in Singapore so eloquently.
Zack
May 27, 2006   01:05 PM PDT
 
"The market economy is not perfect. The market economy is the best thing currently available. There's a difference. It's not a faith, simply a conclusion drawn from the available data. You can't get that much efficiency out of the other systems, currently."

I love "efficiency" arguments. Efficiency for whom, may I ask? The assembly line factory format is efficient from the eyes of the factory owner, but not necessarily to the workers, and the battery of MCQs and fill up the circles please test sheets are efficient to the educators trying to assess the students' understanding, but not necessarily to the student themselves. So since we know efficiency is never waged for a blank countenance, who does your 'best' market economy serve?

Sure, I would agree wholly with you that it is not perfect. But saying that it is not perfect does not mean that (1) one cannot see loop holes in it and comment upon this, or even, like Enron's corrupted act in a deregulated power market, take advantage of this (Enron is not a monopoly as you implied) and (2) one can conclude that it is the best system, especially if one does not say to whom the efficiency is served! (i.e best for whom? the rocks and trees and oxygen atoms?)

It is of course worth what the people will give you for it, but what the people will give you for it is not necessarily determined by the people, but sometimes by engineered attempts to make the price, for example, in Enron's case. The demand was perhaps inelastic in that case, but this does not take away the burden from proponents of the market system in coming up with more responsible "regulations" on the problems faced by a deregulated power market.

It is too difficult to argue on what is a signal and a noise if this is your position. Well, my stance is clear: it may look like a signal to you but it is a noise to me if I define it as a fake signal.

I do not mean to use Enron as a direct case study on the subject of the ministerial salaries. They are of course different matters. What I wanted to show is that Enron is a perfect case study of how greedy and corrupted folks can profit unethically while relying on the full mechanics of the market economy, hence undermining any effort in using the market economy as the ultimate explanation for policies or social beliefs.

Just to indulge in your claim a little more, "we believe that ministers are worth X", is that faith or is that a conclusion drawn from the available data?
Ril
May 27, 2006   10:29 AM PDT
 
"How much is z worth if you can manipulate the market?"

It's worth what people will give you for it. Note that inflation is low. Usually, the preferred method is to calculate how much someone needs to live on, by looking at the price of housing, price of necessities... If you manipulate the market to benefit yourself, with an endowment of X, the only way to do that is deflation. Now, when you hit a deflationary stage, the whole economy could decide to explode and die, taking all your investments with it.

No one's really going to do that.


"And if you can manipulate the market, what is a signal but a noise?"

Nonsense. Monopoly firm operations - they're price-setters in the market. It is a signal of 'we will sell service or good A for this amount'. Even though they can shift the price at any point freely. Still signal, still manipulated, no noise.


"Enron is a perfect case study, no?"

Completely different thing. That's outright corruption and tampering with records. Bribery, not reporting losses properly, accounting fraud... The situation here, is, "We believe that ministers are worth X", not "We will adjust the economy so X, which is what we give the ministers, is now worth the equivalent of Y in 2006 dollars". Or, "We will pay them Y and tell the public X".


"Perhaps your faith in the market economy is just as misplaced as the belief that money is essentially, morally bad."

The market economy is not perfect. The market economy is the best thing currently available. There's a difference. It's not a faith, simply a conclusion drawn from the available data. You can't get that much efficiency out of the other systems, currently.
Zack
May 27, 2006   06:26 AM PDT
 
simplesandra,

Actually I read the thread quite carefully. I did say that greed for money isn't an uniquely Asian thing, yes, but to concur to this would be to say that europeans or simply any non-Asian people is demonstrated to hold this attitude, no? To concur to this by telling your own life-story as an asian is not a concurrence, is it? Of course, I only suppose that you are asian by virtue of your presence in Singapore, and it is not entirely warranted.

Ha, at no point in any of my posts did I ever claim that I "know so much", as you phrased it. I wonder how much of this imagination is at work when you analyze any political situation? By the way, even if someone who claims to know alot need not know everything. So yes, people who know quite a bit can perhaps still be ignorant of Gordon Gekko's famous line.

The last I heard it was quite rigid, and I was simply basing my responses on my last belief, that's all. I am sure things have changed quite a bit now. Well, I am sure media studies and humanities are good topics to study.

Perhaps I am still not getting the point. But it is hard to when the idea or concept you are trying to illustrate is unclear as it stands. Even philosophers who practice different kind of philosophies agree to the philosophy that philosophy is good. So why would someone say that sharing a common philosophy (what is that??) undermine effective policy-making? Unless one can specifically spell out which philosophy that is shared is bad for policy making, I am sure this is only happening in your own head.
Zack
May 27, 2006   06:25 AM PDT
 
simplesandra,

Actually I read the thread quite carefully. I did say that greed for money isn't an uniquely Asian thing, yes, but to concur to this would be to say that europeans or simply any non-Asian people is demonstrated to hold this attitude, no? To concur to this by telling your own life-story as an asian is not a concurrence, is it? Of course, I only suppose that you are asian by virtue of your presence in Singapore, and it is not entirely warranted.

Ha, at no point in any of my posts did I ever claim that I "know so much", as you phrased it. I wonder how much of this imagination is at work when you analyze any political situation? By the way, even if someone who claims to know alot need not know everything. So yes, people who know quite a bit can perhaps still be ignorant of Gordon Gekko's famous line.

The last I heard it was quite rigid, and I was simply basing my responses on my last belief, that's all. I am sure things have changed quite a bit now. Well, I am sure media studies and humanities are good topics to study.

Perhaps I am still not getting the point. But it is hard to when the idea or concept you are trying to illustrate is unclear as it stands. Even philosophers who practice different kind of philosophies agree to the philosophy that philosophy is good. So why would someone say that sharing a common philosophy (what is that??) undermine effective policy-making? Unless one can specifically spell out which philosophy that is shared is bad for policy making, I am sure this is only happening in your own head.
simplesandra
May 27, 2006   05:36 AM PDT
 
Zack wrote: "How can greed be good? I take it that you are joking here. "

Maybe you should read carefully what I wrote: you said greed for money isn't a uniquely Asian thing, I concured and brought up the "greed is good" phrase to further illustrate my point. I didn't say those words.

For someone who claims to know so much I'm surprised you didn't even recognise Gordon Gekko's infamous line from Wall Street. :)

In any case, I don't see any point in carrying on with this debate since you obviously don't seem to understand the political/social situation in Singapore enough.

You suggested that our RC system is effective; I disagreed and brought up the point about RCs, asking why do you think RCs in opposition wards are aiding PAP "advisors" rather than their elected MPs. THis is your reply:

"I don't know why RC from opposition constitutencies serve their oppositions. There can be many reasons which you or I may speculate, but ultimately, they will remain in the region of speculation. But I just don't see how a few instances, congealed into some make-belief convenient wholeness, can become some a form of social belief that guides action! If one subscribes to this nonsense..."

Uh, Zack, I wasn't expecting you to know when I asked. Even Singaporeans have difficulty explaining that to any foreigners who ask--except for the fact that it doesn't make sense. Opposition politicians have been harping on this as an example of how this RC system is flawed, and so far the RCs have only been successful in contradicting themselves in giving their response. Speculation or not, the lack of an adequate response from RCs and government officials is enough to indicate that the system doesn't play fair. And in some cases, a few MAJOR instances are enough to prove that they're anything but "make-belief convenient wholeness".

And this, which you wrote: "In a classroom of any Singapore schools you have people roughly from the same demographic group heading in generally the same direction of math and science (or otherwise) yet you see all sorts of characters and ideas on the same topic."

Maths and science? Last I checked the education system here isn't that rigid, is it? :) We may have our share of technocrats, but rest assured there are a lot of people out there who pursued a higher education besides those; I took Media Studies and Humanities.

But anyway, you still don't get the point, do you. It's got nothing to do with what these ministers or MPs studied, but their own philosophies, and the fact that they're brought into the Cabinet because they share a common philosophy, which may undermine effective policy making.



Dametrius
May 27, 2006   03:55 AM PDT
 
Gayle, these should prove to be valuable sources of info on Ministerial Salaries:
http://courses.nus.edu.sg/course/bizchucl/salary.htm

http://stars.nhb.gov.sg/data/pdfdoc/2000063010.htm

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:t0kwmEiGwR8J:www.mti.gov.sg/Public/NWS/frm_NWS_Default.asp%3Fsid%3D39%26cid%3D382+Ministerial+%22SALARY+BENCHMARKS%22+site:gov.sg&hl=en&gl=sg&ct=clnk&cd=3
Zack
May 27, 2006   03:13 AM PDT
 
Ril,

"Insufficient to ponder. You are extremely unconvincing, I'm sorry to say. And money? Is not a dirty but unavoidable word. It's a signal. Prices are a signal. A price is a signal of how much people will part with x for, how much people will buy y for, how much z is worth. It's a necessary signal, of itself not dirty."

How much is z worth if you can manipulate the market? And if you can manipulate the market, what is a signal but a noise? Enron is a perfect case study, no? Perhaps your faith in the market economy is just as misplaced as the belief that money is essentially, morally bad.
kwayteowman
May 27, 2006   02:57 AM PDT
 
kwayteowman to meepokman wannabe:

"why do you call me a fake ?"

'cos you're not the real thing mah.
See http://meepokman.blogspot.com
Not real is fake loh. Teacher in kindergarten teach me one.

"Do you think you can get away with it by calling me a fake .... sounds familiar ... character assasination ?"

Is someone threatening to sue the KTM? Please dun. The KTM is not the sueing kind. Also, the KTM has already exprained him. Can we please move on..... :-)

"My question is like this .. are you a paid basher ?"

You offering to pay the KTM to bash someone? Sorry, the KTM doesn't do this kind of business. Neither does he have anyone in mind to introduce to you.
Troodon
May 27, 2006   02:34 AM PDT
 
Mark wrote:
"The salary of the ministers, especially the Prime Minister, MUST be high in order to convince the talented people whom the government wants to serve in the civil service."

So joining the civil service is really about money isn't it? Are you implying that talented people will only join the civil service, a profession that entails serving the public, if the money's good? While you might be right that such a system will attract smart people into it, personally I will rather not have such people in office. I want someone who joined the civil service because he/she had a genuine desire to serve, not because he/she entered the civil service because it pays him a couple million dollars. In fact, having in place such a system might even attract the wrong kinds of people into it(people joining it just because of the wonderful compensation benefits). Is such a system even desirable?

"it is not unusual for a CEO to earn up to US$20,000,000 per annum. In the news recently, a CEO in the private sector is going to be paid (legally, unlike T.T. Durai) US$5,000,000 for this year alone..."

Larry and Sergey pay themselves $1 per year at Google. While you can definitely point out that they have tons of Google stock, it still is something that can be admired. By tying their fortunes to the stock of their company, they are basically implying that they are fully dedicated to their company and willing to ride the ups and downs with it. This huge show of dedication to one's company(or nation in this case) should be what we strive for.

Finally, I find it extremely sad that we actually have to use tons of money to attract "talents" into the civil service. Has the civil service lost its meaning in today's society? If this is not an indication of moral decline, then I do not know what is.
Mark
May 26, 2006   10:39 PM PDT
 
While some interesting points are made regarding the salaries of our dear PM and the great discrepancy between it and the salary of George Bush Jr, it must first be pointed out the similar difference in fringe benefits. The President of the United States, besides getting a tremendous executive mansion to stay in, also gets free lodging, free food, free everything. He also gets the services of Air Force One as his own personal jet, Marine One as his own personal helicopter, and Camp David as his own personal retreat. Furthermore, when he retires, he is paid an annual stipend and constitutionally exempted from paying income taxes for the rest of his life. In addition to that, the prestige they have obtained from holding the President's Office allows them to command up to US$ 400,000 PER LECTURE once they leave the office. On the other hand, the Singaporean PM doesn't really get anything much, and therefore is paid a high salary in order to (sort of) compensate.

Also, despite all accusations and anti-'Lee-dynasty Singapore' sentiments, it must be admitted that Lee Hsien Long is an extremely talented man. In banking and finance, it is not unusual for a CEO to earn up to US$20,000,000 per annum. In the news recently, a CEO in the private sector is going to be paid (legally, unlike T.T. Durai) US$5,000,000 for this year alone, with an expected bonus of twice that amount. The salary of the ministers, especially the Prime Minister, MUST be high in order to convince the talented people whom the government wants to serve in the civil service.

I, however, have to agree with you on the point of the MPs not giving enough time to their respective constituencies. With all those high-profile jobs, who would have time? Supposedly, they are paid because they use their weekends to see to such administrative measures, rather than taking leisure time. Oh well, I suppose they're doing a decent job.
Ril
May 26, 2006   09:34 PM PDT
 
"That's what they really mean by the concept of high ministerial salaries removing the need for corruption. They don't need to be corrupt: we just hand over the money anyway."

Doesn't flow. Assertion one, assertion two, where's the link? Are you arguing that it's indirect corruption, that is to say, that the net total would be the same supposing paid less+corruption or paid more+no corruption? Dealing with this separately: It's an issue of reputation. Doing the latter creates the impression, even if it is indirect corruption, that there is no explicit corruption. Investors like this. Also, reputation is vital in international politics, not just economics - open corruption, as found in Some Other Places, seriously damages the reputation of a country. Note the current case of Enernorth Industries Inc (Canada) v.s. Oakwell Engineering Ltd (Singapore), which is a masterful example of defamation and weaseling. Effectively, the basic principle that countries can make agreements which will be upheld by both (or more) sides is cast into serious doubt if there's open corruption. That is to say, all other things being equal - directly paying people more is sensible, compared to paying them less and expecting bribes to supplement their income.


About why it's not indirect corruption - arguments, generally, below this line.

The corruption perceptions index is not a comparative evaluation of cabinets worldwide. It also measures the significance of bribery in official affairs, abuse of power, nepotism, etcetera - all the countries at the top of that index have extremely low recorded bribery and such. You're conflating the two. They're not directly saying, 'the ministers of x country are less corrupt than y' - they're saying, you can expect to find less corruption as a whole in country x than country y.

Secondly! Aha. The 'pay them too much and they'll come in for the money' problem.

This has a flaw in it. The flaw is that the PAP is, at root, extremely pragmatic. Competence is god. Survival is another god. Ideological parties, you can have people wanting to go into politics, and that driving them to competence even though they don't have price incentives.

But with a non-ideology - you do not derive competence-through-inspiration. You derive competence-through-experience. It recruits top members of the civil service, of the private sector - lawyers, doctors, etcetera. They're all competent and capable of learning to administrate well. It's also very hard to hold other jobs while being a member of cabinet, generally due to the fact that it's not permitted. (Excepting a few directorships, which don't actually take up that much time.)

Solution? Pay them a reasonable amount, enough for them to switch their preferences away from the private sector and into cabinet.


"Else, people would work towards entering the government simply because of the dangling carrot that is a fat pay cheque - which would clearly have disastrous consequences for us all."

If they can get /into/ the government for the big fat pay cheque, and standards are good enough, they'll be competent. Why complain about paying for competence? Are you really going to trust random idealists to do it? The public reasons why people enter politics are twee and overused, mostly because no one will listen to anything else. What matters except a well-run country? Would you, perhaps, prefer a poorly-run country with low-paid ministers? As above, the private sector will attract competence due to its ability to price in a flexible manner.

It's not clear at all that it's disastrous, as you said. You're assuming incompetence in the people who select new cabinet members. Are you certain you want to commit to that?


"Why is it that New Zealand ministers can be even less corrupt than our ministers, and yet are paid so many times less?"

They can be less corrupt because they're /ideological/. They self-select. They /want/ to enter politics to push their ideology. And in the US, for a counterexample, you get ideologues who are incredibly corrupt including GWB.

Otherwise, they cannot be trusted? False. Otherwise, they will not enter politics. Set a price on competence. How high are you willing to pay for it? The current administration's decided that the current salaries are what it's willing to pay for competence. Would you like to offer an opinion on the ability of the current cabinet?


"we need to pay them extravagant amounts of money in order for them not to be corrupt, we are implying that they otherwise cannot be trusted; that unless they benefit so much from their positions, they cannot do a good job"

Not, they cannot do a good job unless they benefit. You will not get people who will do a good job if there is not significant benefit. Flaw.

The message sent by the high salaries is simply this: "We believe that the ministers are worth $x a year." That's it. CEO bonuses? "The board of directors believe that this CEO is worth $y on top of his/her salary." It's the same principle.


"Let me tell you what makes it even more difficult: that salaries are being paid to the members of our government, on top of the lucrative salaries they are enjoying in their professional lives."

The cabinet do not have separate jobs. The non-cabinet MPs do. Don't conflate the two. If you're talking about ministers, /talk about ministers/, not backbenchers. If you want to talk about backbenchers, talk about them. You're conflating randomly.


"How much time are they inclined to spend on leaky toilets, flickering lights, and a resident's license application or financial woes?"

You're disregarding the signals of the various elections. If the residents didn't want them there, they /wouldn't be there/. Here, you're assuming /appointed, unelected members/ who are not subject to elections. If you want to dispute election validity, that's a different thing altogether.


"There is more to the discussion, of course - the possible clash of interests when an individual serves both in the public and the private sector"

Clash of interests? None. If they used public policy to benefit them privately, it'd be very obvious. Also, as backbenchers, their influence on policy would be limited and subject to cabinet approval. It's easy to spot and prosecute. If they're in cabinet, they don't /have/ any conflicts, due to not having private sector jobs. They don't even have directorships in companies - it's disallowed.


"But for now this should be sufficient for us to ponder over, and have a second look at this dirty but unavoidable word of money, and the role it plays in our politics."

Insufficient to ponder. You are extremely unconvincing, I'm sorry to say. And money? Is not a dirty but unavoidable word. It's a signal. Prices are a signal. A price is a signal of how much people will part with x for, how much people will buy y for, how much z is worth. It's a necessary signal, of itself not dirty.


You're also not actually offering any solutions. Cut their pay? That's the best I can derive from this, and that, as demonstrated in the first few paragraphs, will lead to 'disastrous consequences for us all' in your own words.

Also: Watch it. Could be defamatory, some of what you're saying.
Meepokman
May 26, 2006   09:26 PM PDT
 
kwayteowman,

why do you call me a fake ?

Do you think you can get away with it by calling me a fake .... sounds familiar ... character assasination ?

My question is like this .. are you a paid basher ?



kwayteowman
May 26, 2006   07:57 PM PDT
 
Quiksilver:

Let me be blunt. The 13K p.m. MP allowance is a political liability that is not worth defending. This part-time/full-time thing is only smoke. Even if your PAP MPs cut ribbons, kiss babies and listen to complaints as a full-time job, people will still be unhappy, though probably only slightly less so.

I'm certain you know the 80/20 principle. I would venture to guess that 80% of the people who vote for the PAP do not attend the MPSs. Most people really don't care that there are now two sessions instead of one. Why you want to make the poor thing thing MPs work so hard?

Not like I haven't seen with my own eyes what happens at the MPSs also. The MPs are like GPs. Instead of dispensing MCs, they dispense MP letters to the bureaucracy. You've gotta try harder to convince me that as a citizen, these fellas are worth $13K p.m. a piece. :-P

You really dun need really smart people as your MPs. Just need some fellas with a good heart and who know how not to spout nonsense in public and draw flak can already. :-P

Okay lah, if you want to pay your Mayors a little extra so that they can clear the rubbish, keep the place clean and make sure that the drains are not choked so that the place doesn't flood, I say fair enough and I am willing to make an exception for a few of them. :-P

RightEffort:

Why you so kay poh? How people want to spend their money is their business lah! :-)
righteffort
May 26, 2006   05:55 PM PDT
 
Just wonder how do they spend their incomes? Invest in properties, shares ..... or save for their next or next next generations or donate 20% to charities or...? Don't think they spend extravagantly as public figures! I will highly doubt their integrity and professionalism if the high pay is for preventing them from corruption.
kwayteowman
May 26, 2006   04:06 PM PDT
 
Troodon:

I'm bored, so I'm picking a fight that is not mine. In any case, I vehemently disagree with you that the PAP cannot be voted out. I believe that if they keep repeating what they did at the last GE, the PAP risks losing its majority in 2016. :-) They should be able to survive 2011, given the fact that they will probably get some political mileage over the termination of the Malaysian Water Agreement and the fact that WP will need more than 5 years to recruit and consolidate their position.

If the PAP gets complacent and sits on their behind, just you watch. :-P

Your question on the reserves is a valid one. But maybe you have not articulated quite clearly what your real concerns are. Perhaps I can try to make a guess since without a target, I also dunno how to respond to you. I suspect that there are two concerns:
(i) Gut feel that Ministers should not be paid in the millions.
(ii) Lack of check and balance

The first concern is irrational. Given a choice, the stockholders of a company also dun want to pay CEOs millions of dollars. They'd rather have that money as dividends. But it happens. I don't think you really understand the size of the job of the Ministers. High pay in itself is not a problem -- as long as the incompetent ones get fired. In this regard, my view is that Singaporeans should be more discerning in what they like and what they dun like and perhaps voice their opinions so that the PAP get rid of the Ministers that the people dun like.

Personally, I like Tharman. I think he's doing a fabulous job with the Education System. On the other hand, I'm quite happy to see Yeo Chow Tong go. I think that land transport in Singapore is in a complete mess at this point.

As for the second point of check and balance, I understand that given the NKF saga, there are real concerns that somebody might be causing Singapore to lose a lot of money and no one knows. Fair enough, perhaps the fault of the part of the Garmen is not communicating the state of the Reserves well.

Seriously, if we know for a fact that the Reserves are growing at 20% a year, why should we care exactly where the money is parked. Doing so will expose our investment strategies. Also, it seems like an absolute waste of manpower and time to do a stock take every year.

How do we know that people are not lying? Aiyah must have a little bit of faith in our system. Worse come to worse, let's pass a law to hang all those who falsify accounts for the Reserves. The Garmen should also take note of this and publish some aggregate figures. Temasek has recently released some number what.

If you think that Temasek has done a terrible job investing our money, then say so. As Quiksilver says, that's a problem with the people at Temasek and not the Ministers' problem what. Let's learn to apportion blame a little more fairly can?
Troodon
May 26, 2006   01:25 PM PDT
 
Quiksilver,
you said:
"You should also know as well as I do that the Cabinet lives or dies by its performance. If it cannot deliver the goods and improve life for its citizens, it will be voted out."

I find it hard to believe that you are writing this with a straight face. Voted out. In Singapore? With the current political climate(GRCs, control of the mainstream media, real or perceived non-transparency in several areas... all of which work against any sort of viable opposition), I really don't think your analogy of the people of the nation being shareholders to a company is true. Shareholders can and will demand that company accounts/expenditure is revealed and published. Can the public expect that of the management of the nation's reserves? The former president Ong Teng Cheong stated on March 10, 2000 of AsiaWeek Magazine:

"I do not know. Don't ask me, because I don't have the answer. I've been asking them. In fact, in 1996, exactly halfway through my term, I wrote prime minister Goh a letter. At that time, everybody was expecting a general election in December or January. After the election, a new government would be sworn in. When that happens, all the reserves, whether past or current, become past reserves and are locked up on the changeover date. As president, I have to safeguard them and they can only be drawn upon with my permission. So I said to Mr Goh: It's already halfway through my term, but until today I still don't know all these figures about the reserves."

Is the situation still the same today? Perhaps it has changed for the better. However, this is hardly what shareholders should expect from their company. Facts aside, does anyone else feel that it seems morally wrong to pay such astronomical figures to political figures. To say that high paying surgeons and bankers are "making a sacrifice" to join politics because they are now accepting > 1 million dollars in salary seems slightly ridiculous. At least that's how I feel. Perhaps I am the minority but I really feel deep down inside, many people will share my sentiments.
Quiksilver
May 26, 2006   12:36 PM PDT
 
Troodon,

I read your comments with interest.

You are basically saying that ministers should not be paid equivalent high salaries, because public sector careers are fundamentally different from private sector careers.

I agree. I never said the salaries were equivalent. The fact is, they are not. The top private sector careers like surgeons or CEOs or bankers, pay far more.

What I did say, was that many of the Ministers willingly took a financial paycut to join the public sector. This is a fact. They could have stayed in the private sector, but they answered the call to serve, making a financial sacrifice. The fact that they did so, is something you really can’t argue with.

I agree with you that compensation should be pegged to level of responsibility and performance. These are fundamental tenets of remuneration. Just as private sector CEOs are paid based on strict performance evaluations criteria, so too is the public sector. You should already know that there are strict salary bands and performance grades for all government employees. You should also know as well as I do that the Cabinet lives or dies by its performance. If it cannot deliver the goods and improve life for its citizens, it will be voted out. That is no different from the CEO of a private sector company who will be sacked if the company fails to perform.

I disagree with you that government funds and investments are the right performance criteria for Ministers. You are mixing up levels of responsibility. The job of managing funds and investments belongs to players like Temasek and GIC. If the funds do well, then it is the management and fund managers of Temasek and GIC who deserve bigger bonuses, not the Ministers.

At Cabinet level, the ultimate performance criteria is economic growth, because that determines our citizen’s standard of living. And you should already know that Minister’s salaries are pegged to GDP – when the economy does badly, their pay is frozen or even cut, but when GDP does well, they get bigger bonuses.

As for your point about MPs, my point of view is already clear – it seems to me that the key performance criteria of an MP is hardly whether he is full-time or part-time. Is Chiam See Tong a good MP by virtue of the fact that he is full-time? No. It is about how much you can deliver to your constituents, about your capability, and not about something silly like part-time or full-time. Even if you are full-time, does that mean you hold more Meet-the-People sessions than part-time MPs? No. Not everybody is free to meet you during office hours anyway.

You may wish to know that the number of Meet-the-People sessions run have doubled.
Zack
May 26, 2006   09:54 AM PDT
 
To Troodon,

Since you referenced my post, I thought I should respond to your interesting remarks.

I believe your faith in 'skills' is misplaced. Sure, there are problems of transfer but sometimes you take people on because (1) the other people they know and have some 'cost-benefit' relationships with them (2) brilliant domain general IQ and EQ. Being a worldclass banker does not allow one to conclude that the worldclass banker is ill-suited to be a worldclass politician by at least (1) and (2), if not more reasons.


Zack
May 26, 2006   09:34 AM PDT
 
simplesandra,

How high is high is a question each of us have to answer individually where no consensus is possible lest a coincidence that our intuitions or expectations meet. Depending on who you are and your expectations in life, it is what it is. If your critique is levelled at the lack of a check and balance system, then let it be so. High remuneration cannot be bootstrapped to a critique of the lack of a check and balance system minus some collective consensus on some unreasonably high remuneration. Since we cannot agree to the latter, there is no case here.

How can greed be good? I take it that you are joking here. Greed as decadence, as someone once said, is still receiving the same amount of pleasure from twice the amount of 'goods' that give it. If so, it cannot be good. I simply cannot agree to the fact that asians or especially Chinese as you claimed, is greedy, pragmatic or materialistic. Firstly, this is over generalizing-before you know it, this lead to a slippery slope where every major ethnicity would be pegged to some undesirable moral qualities. I don't have to say who was the infamous one who pushed this remark to its most horrendous conclusions. Secondly, there is nothing wrong being pragmatic or materialistic. We are all materialists in one way or another (i.e. we eat, we need clothes and we need objects for all kinds of purposes in life). Only materialistic decadence as greed is bad. Similarly, there is nothing wrong being pragmatic. We all have to take things as they are and make the best of it, and being a consequentialist sometimes allow us to decide more rationally than otherwise possible. To just indulge in your case a little further, and assuming I know the historical context where you were brought up, Singapore was in (and perhaps still is) in the survival of the fittest mentality for the longest time already. People used to have nothing as I understand, and simply in order to get by, they had to be practical about things. Granted. But now we have something, we don't want to lose it, so we work harder, and flog the horse that bring our goods in more cruel ways. If this is the mentality you subscribe to, there is nothing more to say. In sum, I do not share your view that asians is more of this or that than any other ethnicities in the world today.

On your intuition that things are bad when we have an extreme tip to one 'type' over another, people are mostly quite different beyond the stereotypical casts we assign them to. What do you mean by a businessman? Pro-Choice or against that? Green or not green? Believes in social equality or the world to the gutters? Even the questions that I raised are admittably problematic and stereotypical. In a classroom of any Singapore schools you have people roughly from the same demographic group heading in generally the same direction of math and science (or otherwise) yet you see all sorts of characters and ideas on the same topic. So no, I am not convinced that your intuition has any weight on this issue unless one can provide more evidence that this has been investigated to be undesirable to some situations of social governance.

That said, I do agree with you that pro-business mentality does have a grip. But this grip is again not an exclusively Singaporean trait, but a neo-liberal one tha affects most if not all democratic societies in the world today. Even with this, unless one is able to show how a pro-business attitude is detrimental to some social concerns, what has been claimed is again, not convincing. One can retort on how China has considerably polluted the environments from this attitude but one can also raise examples from Scandinavia or some countries in the EU which pro-business policies have permitted new regulations as well as capital to emerge to sharpen those which are in place. In sum, pro-business attitude does not necessarily lead to a detriment in a social environment.

You claimed that the system is not completely ineffective (i.e. it is effective somewhat), then you go on to say that it is hardly as effective (as I made it to be). Two things. First, you seem to have contradicted yourself, if not at least clouded the issue. Second, I did not posit some extent of effectiveness in my reply, but merely responded that your previous claim has been exaggerated.

I don't know why RC from opposition constitutencies serve their oppositions. There can be many reasons which you or I may speculate, but ultimately, they will remain in the region of speculation. But I just don't see how a few instances, congealed into some make-belief convenient wholeness, can become some a form of social belief that guides action! If one subscribes to this nonsense, then how can one differentiate this nonsense from the nonsense provided by other camp(s)?
Troodon
May 26, 2006   05:02 AM PDT
 
Some people have noted in the comments that the ministers are taking a great hit in the private sector to join politics. They are sacrificing their jobs which pay them X times the amount earned in parliament. While I do not deny the fact that their private sector salaries might have been astronomical, this argument is not valid. Politics is politics and managing a country is different from being a top-class surgeon. It might be true that there are some skills that can be directly transferrable from private to public sectors but this is not often the case. This basically implies that the folks are switching careers. The notion of paying them equivalent high salaries thus does not hold since the jobs are different(in some cases, completely different). In fact, how can we be sure that they will be just as capable at managing CPF as performing surgery? Even good managment skills in a large bank do not translate to good skills in governance. These are 2 separate entities people. I agree that we should compensate talents appropriately. However, we should compensate them based on what they are capable of delivering. If the ministers really want to peg their salaries to the private sector, that is all well and good. However, the people should then expect private sector based performance evaluations and criticisms. You want the cake, you have to prove to the people that you have earned the right to eat it. This means full transparency, public scrutiny of government funds and investments and a set of standardized rules and criteria on evaluating government peformance. These set of rules should be set by an independent committee whose members have been voted in by the public and have no connections whatsoever to any political party. Is the current ruling party ready for such a scheme?
The other thing that really irks me is the phenomena of part-time MPs. I do not quite buy the argument of MPs being part-time. When the people of the nation pay taxes for a good government, I think they expect that that money is going into individuals who are dedicated to their jobs, namely, governing the country. Which company will justify a high paying salary for an individual who works part-time? As the boss, this simply goes against the interests of the company and its shareholders. The amount of money they pay to MPs is a non trivial sum of cash, a figure that does not justify part-time working hours. I haven't even gotten into the moral aspects of the issue yet but I will stop here since enough has been said. My sixth sense tells me something is inherently wrong with the system today and in the long run(the next 10 to 20 years) simply unsustainable. Those of you who still support the current system should open your eyes and wake up. Something is going terribly wrong with the country and you people should realize it. The sooner the better. Lastly, I'll like to thank Galye for her wonderful writeup. I am very impressed with your insight for a 17 year-old. Keep up the good work. For people telling you that you have "pushed the OB markers, beware", please take note but do not be threatened. Write with your conscience, write points which are justified with adequate research and you will be fine. I will suggest that in the future you might want to state the references where you got your data/derived your conclusions. Once again, keep up the good work! Keep writing!
Troodon
May 26, 2006   05:02 AM PDT
 
Some people have noted in the comments that the ministers are taking a great hit in the private sector to join politics. They are sacrificing their jobs which pay them X times the amount earned in parliament. While I do not deny the fact that their private sector salaries might have been astronomical, this argument is not valid. Politics is politics and managing a country is different from being a top-class surgeon. It might be true that there are some skills that can be directly transferrable from private to public sectors but this is not often the case. This basically implies that the folks are switching careers. The notion of paying them equivalent high salaries thus does not hold since the jobs are different(in some cases, completely different). In fact, how can we be sure that they will be just as capable at managing CPF as performing surgery? Even good managment skills in a large bank do not translate to good skills in governance. These are 2 separate entities people. I agree that we should compensate talents appropriately. However, we should compensate them based on what they are capable of delivering. If the ministers really want to peg their salaries to the private sector, that is all well and good. However, the people should then expect private sector based performance evaluations and criticisms. You want the cake, you have to prove to the people that you have earned the right to eat it. This means full transparency, public scrutiny of government funds and investments and a set of standardized rules and criteria on evaluating government peformance. These set of rules should be set by an independent committee whose members have been voted in by the public and have no connections whatsoever to any political party. Is the current ruling party ready for such a scheme?
The other thing that really irks me is the phenomena of part-time MPs. I do not quite buy the argument of MPs being part-time. When the people of the nation pay taxes for a good government, I think they expect that that money is going into individuals who are dedicated to their jobs, namely, governing the country. Which company will justify a high paying salary for an individual who works part-time? As the boss, this simply goes against the interests of the company and its shareholders. The amount of money they pay to MPs is a non trivial sum of cash, a figure that does not justify part-time working hours. I haven't even gotten into the moral aspects of the issue yet but I will stop here since enough has been said. My sixth sense tells me something is inherently wrong with the system today and in the long run(the next 10 to 20 years) simply unsustainable. Those of you who still support the current system should open your eyes and wake up. Something is going terribly wrong with the country and you people should realize it. The sooner the better. Lastly, I'll like to thank Galye for her wonderful writeup. I am very impressed with your insight for a 17 year-old. Keep up the good work. For people telling you that you have "pushed the OB markers, beware", please take note but do not be threatened. Write with your conscience, write points which are justified with adequate research and you will be fine. I will suggest that in the future you might want to state the references where you got your data/derived your conclusions. Once again, keep up the good work! Keep writing!
Troodon
May 26, 2006   05:01 AM PDT
 
Some people have noted in the comments that the ministers are taking a great hit in the private sector to join politics. They are sacrificing their jobs which pay them X times the amount earned in parliament. While I do not deny the fact that their private sector salaries might have been astronomical, this argument is not valid. Politics is politics and managing a country is different from being a top-class surgeon. It might be true that there are some skills that can be directly transferrable from private to public sectors but this is not often the case. This basically implies that the folks are switching careers. The notion of paying them equivalent high salaries thus does not hold since the jobs are different(in some cases, completely different). In fact, how can we be sure that they will be just as capable at managing CPF as performing surgery? Even good managment skills in a large bank do not translate to good skills in governance. These are 2 separate entities people. I agree that we should compensate talents appropriately. However, we should compensate them based on what they are capable of delivering. If the ministers really want to peg their salaries to the private sector, that is all well and good. However, the people should then expect private sector based performance evaluations and criticisms. You want the cake, you have to prove to the people that you have earned the right to eat it. This means full transparency, public scrutiny of government funds and investments and a set of standardized rules and criteria on evaluating government peformance. These set of rules should be set by an independent committee whose members have been voted in by the public and have no connections whatsoever to any political party. Is the current ruling party ready for such a scheme?
The other thing that really irks me is the phenomena of part-time MPs. I do not quite buy the argument of MPs being part-time. When the people of the nation pay taxes for a good government, I think they expect that that money is going into individuals who are dedicated to their jobs, namely, governing the country. Which company will justify a high paying salary for an individual who works part-time? As the boss, this simply goes against the interests of the company and its shareholders. The amount of money they pay to MPs is a non trivial sum of cash, a figure that does not justify part-time working hours. I haven't even gotten into the moral aspects of the issue yet but I will stop here since enough has been said. My sixth sense tells me something is inherently wrong with the system today and in the long run(the next 10 to 20 years) simply unsustainable. Those of you who still support the current system should open your eyes and wake up. Something is going terribly wrong with the country and you people should realize it. The sooner the better. Lastly, I'll like to thank Galye for her wonderful writeup. I am very impressed with your insight for a 17 year-old. Keep up the good work. For people telling you that you have "pushed the OB markers, beware", please take note but do not be threatened. Write with your conscience, write points which are justified with adequate research and you will be fine. I will suggest that in the future you might want to state the references where you got your data/derived your conclusions. Once again, keep up the good work! Keep writing!
simplesandra
May 26, 2006   03:40 AM PDT
 
Zack wrote: "'I am paid this high salary because it keeps me from wanting and thinking about money during the operation, and perhaps that heighten the possibility that the patient will not turn out to become a retard.' Bad justification, absolutely. "

Of course, in this case, the patient has the choice whether he agrees with the doctor, or find a new one. In the case of the ruling PAP government, there's little the average Singaporean can do because of the majority the PAP has in Parliament--a majority it intends to keep at all costs. When ministerial salaries can be repeated raised based on this pretext, you have to ask yourself how high is high, and at what stage does this "system" itself becomes corrupt because it can never be checked.

Zack wrote: "The love of money as a pathway to power is never solely the love affair of asian societies as claimed but I see the same in many other societies as well."

Aye, greed is good, and we know where that phrase came from. :) But it seems that Asian--especially Chinese-- societies are more inclinded towards selfish pursuits than selfless ones. As far as Maslow's hierachy of needs are concerned, we don't aim high when it comes to self-actualisation. Of course, I'm not saying I'm right, but the way I'm brought up, I tend to see Asians as more pragmatic and materialistic lot. ;)

Zack wrote: "On the point about the suitability of 'talents' to handle human affairs, by saying that people who are used to think in terms of money and cents are ill equipped to craft sound social policies, it is like saying (a) people who craft sound social policies should not be used to think in terms of money and cents "

Nope, I've got nothing against having CEOs or CFOs in ministerial positions. I'm just against forming an entire cabinet with predominantly these sort of people, especially when they tend to have a pro-business approach to policy-making. A mathematician can too be a musician, but when you have too many of either, you'll end up fostering a collective mindset that may not be good.

Take a sociologist and a businessman; both see the issue of globalisation from different perspectives because they stress on different areas of importance: the sociologist might point out the negative effects on the middle-class (and hence the widening social gaps), while the businessman is more likely to see the opportunities it offers instead. Throw in the corporate mentality within the Singaopre government, and there a more pressing need to have a good mix of people from various backgrounds to ensure that policies aren't too skewed towards one end.

Zack wrote: "there are proper channels, like this one and perhaps the ST, to voice them and get them corrected when they appear. But to conclude that one karaoke abuse of power leads us to believe that the entire system is ineffective is to say again, nothing short of accusatory. "

Like I said, incidents like the one in the Straits Times aren't isolated ones, and while I'm not saying the system is completely ineffective, but maybe it's because you don't live in Singapore, 'cos if you've been here long enough, you'd realise that it's hardly as effective as what you make it to be. I've personally heard complaints from residents in my area that never ends up in the papers.

And how can you explain when resident committees that are set up to serve nominated MPs end up assisting PAP "advisors" in opposition constituencies like Potong Pasir and Hougang? :)


kwayteowman
May 26, 2006   03:31 AM PDT
 
NameConcerned:

You're not making any sense. What matters is the total cost to the tax payers.

In any case, I don't think that high salaries deters corruption. A lot of crooks are rich to begin with. What is true however is that insufficient pay breeds corruption, as shown in many countries.

I'm not trying to defend the current salary benchmarks per se, but something should be said about looking at a salary that's commensurate with the size of the job.

Patriotism and love for country are a real plus, but what's more important are competency in administration. You think being Minister is about cutting ribbons and kissing babies? I'm don't want to be drawn into a protracted discussion over the competence of the PAP ministers here. You can engage me on that matter at some later point on my own blog if you wish.

My point to you is this: to think that public servants should be paid less than a fair wage is inane. What is fair is debateable, but given that the responsibilities of the Ministers seem to be commensurate with that of the CEOs, the current numbers are not completely out of whack.
Curious
May 26, 2006   12:06 AM PDT
 
QuickSilver, thank you for pointing out how much financial sacrifices our Ministers made when they joined politics, especially Dr. Ng Eng Hen who left his private practice in Mount Elizabeth Hospital, Dr. Vivian Balakrishnan who left his CEO post in the Singapore General Hospital, and Dr. Tony Tan who was chairman of OCBC before. I sincerely thank all of them for their dedication. For readers who are interested in the current cabinet members' previous careers, I refer you to http://www.cabinet.gov.sg/CabinetAppointments/index.htm.
NameConcerned
May 25, 2006   09:15 PM PDT
 
Quiksilver you got it all wrong. Gayle did not say that Bush earns three times more thah the PM.

Its the other way round if the PM's ("basic salary is USD 1 239 240 per annum, or SGD 1 958 000").

Also she is talking about "basic salary" but you are referring to total remunerations. Thats like comparing chalk and cheese. Get a life.

Anyway the conundrum is: can any public figure justify a basic salary more than the combined salaries of the presidents of the USA, China, Russia, Indonesia and India? Thats what US$USD 1 239 240 per annum is enough to pay !

I am also not sure that high salary deters corruption. Take the case of Enron and WorldCom. The executives there got hundreds of millions of dollars in pay and options but they are still hauled to courts by the SEC for corruption and wrong-doings.

Also high salary in govt tends to attract the small pool of talents which should ideally be evenly spread in the private sector otherwise that sector which will suffer to the detriment of all the people.

Also the govt's job is to govern and not to run businesses like we do in Spore, competing with the private sector. The Chabols in Korea are all privately owned but in Spore our "Chabols" are really GLCs.
putitthisway
May 25, 2006   03:39 PM PDT
 
Very nicely put.
Quiksilver
May 25, 2006   01:36 PM PDT
 
Gayle,

I enjoyed reading your post. It’s fair, balanced, and makes its point well. There are too many anonymous people who make entirely unfair, unwarranted and blatantly biased comments on such issues, to the point where they lose credibility. I am happy to read what you write for a change.

I just want to make some points which you might want to consider.

First, comparing the salaries of Singapore ministers to those of other countries like the US is not entirely as straightforward as you put it. It may appear to you that the US President earns 3 times more than the Singapore PM. Let’s assume this is true. Then again, Singapore has a “clean wage” policy – i.e. no frills. Most other countries like the US certainly don’t have such a policy. If you start cataloguing George Bush or Tony Blair’s emoluments, they would boggle your mind. They range from Air Force One, an entire legion of the Secret Service for life, housing fit for royalty – and that’s the tip of the iceberg. If you start comparing total remuneration (not just salaries) including all side benefits, I do not think you would end up with the same conclusions. Do you honestly believe, hand over heart, that the total remuneration of the leader of the most powerful nation on earth, is less than those of the Singapore PM? That’s got to be a stretch for credulity.

Second, you speak of high salaries to deter corruption. Indeed this is factually true, in the following sense – administrations which have poorer public sector salaries, also tend to be those which are more corrupt. There is absolutely no question that China or India would have less public sector corruption than the high levels they currently experience, if their civil servants were paid better salaries compared to their private sector counterparts. So this is no thin excuse.

Third, you suggest that ministerial salaries are skyrocketing and it would be disastrous for people to enter politics simply to gain from the high pay and benefits. But you did not do your empirical research for this. For example, who do you think earns more – Lee Kuan Yew (a trained lawyer) on his ministerial pay, or his wife who is a senior partner at a top law firm? Dr Ng Eng Hen and Dr Vivian Balarishnan are top doctors in the private sector – and you know how much top doctors earn. What kind of paycut did they take to join the public sector? Dr Tony Tan was formerly Chairman of OCBC before being persuaded to become a Minister again. You should have some idea of the kind of pay top bankers earn. What kind of paycut do you think he took to join the public sector?

The point is very simple. If you take a quick look at the Cabinet today, the fact of the matter is that these people made significant financial sacrifices in joining the public sector. The fact of the matter is that capable people earn plenty of money – let’s not begrudge that. We are very used to people earning such sums in the private sector. So when such top people take paycuts (this is a statement, not a hypothesis) to join the public sector to serve, I find it quite galling to accuse them of joining the public sector because of the fat pay cheque – because the fact is that, had they remained in their private sector careers, they would have earned far more. So where does the idea that people serve for high pay come from? No doubt, service to the nation should be based on ideals and not just moolah – and this is consistent with the financial sacrifices that the Ministers have made.

Fourth, I want to be clear that anti-corruption is not the only reason for high salaries. In fact, one should be cognizant of the fact that people who are corrupt, can be corrupt irrespective of whether they are drawing high or low pay. The late Teh Cheang Wan is a case in point. So while high pay deters corruption (as I’ve mentioned in my second point), high pay cannot guarantee zero corruption. Anti-corruption is therefore only part of the reason for high pay. A second, and equally important reason, is that of talent retention. The larger the spread between private and public sector pay, the more difficult it will be to convince the best and brightest in the private sector to serve the nation.

Fifth, on MPs who do not work full-time. I am not sure that I would prefer an MP who works full-time as an MP. It really depends on the capability of the MP to resolve the people’s problems. To take a different example – would you rather have a top medical specialist, who has to spread his time and duties between numerous different patients, to attend to your medical needs, or a young padawan who can devote plenty of time to you? Would you rather have the services of Davinder Singh as a lawyer, even on a part-time basis, or would you prefer a full-time someone-else working on your legal cases? I am honestly not so sure that Chiam See Tong does a better job as an MP, simply by virtue of the fact that he is a full-time MP. I thought his other qualities distinguished him – sincerity, ability to connect to the man on the ground, and honesty in the way he goes about things unlike the likes of Chee Soon Juan.

Lastly, on conflict of interest. I see no empirical evidence (you may wish to point me to the contrary) that Singapore fares poorly on this. Major international studies show Singapore to have a first-rate standard of governance. Why single this out as an issue, when there is seemingly no fire behind the smoke?
KLY
May 25, 2006   01:28 PM PDT
 
will someone compute how much it takes per singapore citizen to maintain the entire parliament including the cabinet? I am not good at maths.
kwayteowman
May 25, 2006   03:24 AM PDT
 
Zack:

Well said. :-) You got a blog? If you dun already have one, please start one. ;-P
Zack
May 25, 2006   02:56 AM PDT
 
Simplesandra,

1. On your first point on the justifiability of salary, I would just say that the justification as given is completely unjustified, therefore, the high salary is unjustified. But I don't see how one can connect an unjustifiable high salary to a conclusion of "legitimised corruption" without also going through what we call 'accusation'? For example, I know of a neurosurgeon who when asked why he is paid so much to do his job when there are plenty of others who are much more brilliant and perhaps much more capable, replied, 'I am paid this high salary because it keeps me from wanting and thinking about money during the operation, and perhaps that heighten the possibility that the patient will not turn out to become a retard.' Bad justification, absolutely. Legitimised corruption as you have defined it, one cannot say so.

I have heard of many lousy justifications from the allegedly brainiest of our country. For example, being asked why Singapore is what it is now, they said, oh, bad comparison, Singapore is not the USA, we have asian values and roots and liberalism as you defined it don't work. Or oh, Singapore is a work in progress, and since we are experimenting with everything, everything is permissible because this is not the end goal and hence temporal pain is tolerable and so on. That said, lousy reasoning only equates lousy reasoning, not an inductive leap to some conclusion as claimed.


2. If you truly mean corrupt, then it is one of moral corruption: the belief that money can control someone's moral behavior is a truly corrupt one. There is no legitimization in this one since it is clearly and plainly for all to see by one's choice of justifications.

3. You said, " as in most Asian societies, money = power :)" I say, in most human modern democratic societies, money=power as well :) (or has democracies become plutocracies?). The love of money as a pathway to power is never solely the love affair of asian societies as claimed but I see the same in many other societies as well, notably, the most powerful country in the world. True, it is definitely never far-fetched but not being far-fetched does not make the statement of saying that it is the primary incentive true.

4. On the point about the suitability of 'talents' to handle human affairs, by saying that people who are used to think in terms of money and cents are ill equipped to craft sound social policies, it is like saying (a) people who craft sound social policies should not be used to think in terms of money and cents (b) that there is mental faculty to govern people, and a separate mental faculty to govern money and cents (c) business talents are so intransigent to the possibility that they can become effective public servants as well

On (a), we may not agree with A.Greenspan and his preceding line of economists/social policy makers but we cannot disagree that they are people who don't think about money and cents. And since they are people who think about money and cents yet are sensible about crafting social policies, then the assumption taken in your claim must be revoked.

On (b), it is like saying that if I am a mathematician, I cannot be a musician. Or to use a crude fallacy employed by the brainiest of the state, if I use my left brain most of the time, I am not a user of my right brain most of the time. Granted, humans are weak creatures cognitively, and we frequently see new things with old eyes, but much of our achievement as a race is also adopting new eyes in new challenges. So, no, I disagree with the split brain theory implicit in your claim.

On (c), it is a question mark. Some business talents who are ethical, who are responsible yet creative, who knows how to make money but still treat people as priority, rare as they are, may make your mark. Others who are less ethical, who are irresponsible but creative, who knows only how to make money but the world can go down the gutters, they are less likely to make your mark. But it is an open question, and one cannot hint if business talents are incapable of becoming effective public servants because our experience tells us we have good and bad lots from people who are business talents and people who are not business talents as well.

5. Thank you for your light reading. Well, I just recalled a book titled animal farm. My point still stands: in any edifice of greatness, there will always be some flaws. The "solution" in answering to such flaws is that there are proper channels, like this one and perhaps the ST, to voice them and get them corrected when they appear. But to conclude that one karaoke abuse of power leads us to believe that the entire system is ineffective is to say again, nothing short of accusatory.

Of course, I am not a believer in chance all the time but neither do I believe in deliberateness all the time as well. ;)
Lina
May 25, 2006   01:27 AM PDT
 
You should read The Power Elite by C Wright Mills - one of our great sociologists. It describes your suspisions by using the US as an example. It's amazing.
simplesandra
May 25, 2006   01:12 AM PDT
 
Zack wrote: "High ministerial salaries simply permit the PAP to use their position in order to profit legally". But which kind of rightful professional occupation (i.e. excluding assasins, killers and the likes), remunerated by high salaries, is illegal? "

I believe what she's trying to say is that the ruling PAP government is using its majority in Parliament to sanction the high ministerial salaries--regardless of whether it's justifiable or not. It is perfectly "legal", but it also amounts to holding Singaporeans ransom by the flawed argument that you need to give politicians an obscene sum of money so they won't end up corrupted. This sounds like legitimised corruption, if you ask me.

Zack wrote: "Who knows? At best, we can say that corruption is undesirable, but to pronounce that the primary incentive is money is really another big, unsubstantiated claim. "

Point taken. I believe corruption has as much to do with power (if not more) than money, especially in a political envrionment. But when you consider how corporatised Singapore is, and the background of many of the elected PAP MPs (many whom are lawyers, business people, etc), to say money is a primary incentive for corruption in Singapore isn't far-fetched. Hey, as in most Asian societies, money = power. :)

Zack wrote: "(a) Who, really, in a small city state like Singapore with a limited talent pinnacle pool, who rises to the top 1% of the country, don't hold chairman or CEO or CFO in this organization and that company? "

The crux of the issue is, are these people voted in by the people to run a corporation, or serve his constituents? I've no doubts that Bill Gates and Steve Jobs are great visionaries and entrepreneurs, but I wouldn't want them to run my town. Maybe we should ask is, does buisiness talents equate to effective public servants? How can a government come up with effective social policies when most of its crop of people are business people who are used to thinking in terms of money and cents?

Zack wrote: "The MP is just one person, perhaps with good amount of power to do things, but there are equally a good number of foot soldiers under the MP who are running the day to day schematics for the general populace."

Since you don't even know who Steve Chia is, I take it that you don't live in Singapore, and hence probably won't know how ineffective a job these so-called "foot soldiers" are doing. Try reading this:

http://www.straitstimes.com/forum/story/0,5562,394945,00.html

And before you bring it up, no, these aren't isolated incidents that occur once in a blue moon. ;)




kwayteowman
May 25, 2006   12:53 AM PDT
 
To the fake mee pok man:

Oi, please dun impersonate my brudder leh. I asked him and he say he didn't post comment on Gayle's blog.

Nevertheless, you have asked a belli good question. Your point is quite true. To peg salaries to expenditures along creates the wrong incentive structures. To do so will mean that the Ministers will be rewarded for wantonly wasting our tax payers monies. The KTM also pays taxes and isn't getting paid by the MIW (at least not yet), so clearly he's not suggesting something so absolutely ludicrous.

His point merely is that when we talk about pay, we have to look at the size of the job. Like it or not, we have to pay people according to the size of the job, i.e. how much money they control and how many people report to them.

Your suggestion to peg pay to returns is a very sound one. If the Ministers were really CEOs, they would have been paid with stock options. The six million dollar question is how we can implement such a system in the public service. The KTM has actually been thinking about this problem. It is possible that he will come up with something and spout some nonsense on this matter in a couple of weeks when he's less busy with his KT.

The KTM is not an advocate of high Ministerial salaries as he said before. He is just advocating that people look at the issue from the right perspective (in terms of size). Seriously, the amount of money involved is MUCH LESS than dunno what lift upgrading -- which in the KTM's mind is already quite a Third World issue.

In any case, this issue of Ministerial salaries has been flogged to death. Can people please stop flogging the poor dead horse (SPCA take note) and move on to bigger and more significant issues??
Exasperated
May 25, 2006   12:45 AM PDT
 
To all those goondus out there rebutting Gayle's opinion, WAKE UP YOUR IDEA!!!
GO AND THINK HOW MUCH THESE PEOPLE UP THERE ARE RIPPING US OF OUR MONEY!
THEY ARE HOLDING SEVERAL JOBS AND SALARIES WHEN WE, as CITIZENS, AT THE END OF THE DAY MAY NOT EVEN LIVE TO SEE OUR CPF MONEY!
STUPID OR WHAT YOU ALL???!

U WANT TO STAY IN S'PORE FOr LONG, THEN YOU BETTER GO BE A CIVIL SERVANT WITH THE NOSE STUCK IN THE AIR!

BUT ME, I'D RATHER BE A QUITTER THAN SUBJECT MYSELF TO SUCH IMMORALITY!

THE term 'CIVIL SERVICE' in this country is totally DISTORTED!

And to think we are actually paying for their salaries?!?! HORRORS!
Meepokman
May 25, 2006   12:27 AM PDT
 
From meepokman to kwayteowman:

How can you peg salary to expenditure ? It means the more you spend, the higher your salary ? Sounds like the dot.com bust of 2000 ... the higher the burn rate, the more your salary ?

I think it should be peg to returns.

recruit ong
May 25, 2006   12:21 AM PDT
 
Yo! Go read yawning bread, his latest entry puts forth what Spore Inc is all about and the thinking (or lack of, hehe) behind it. Its all about $ and more $$$$.

Jaime Han put it across in lesser words and less flattery during last yr's dialogue session with the old man.
darth
May 25, 2006   12:04 AM PDT
 
btw, forgot to add this.

Has anyone got any idea where i can get my hands on the Auditor-General's report(s) on the govt?

he is, afterall, one of the "checks" on the government.

it would be interesting to see if he has discovered any shady practices or found funds unaccounted for.
darth
May 24, 2006   11:43 PM PDT
 
dear Gayle,

an "armchair critic" like you are not welcomed by the community because you should be standing for elections if you really want to oppose.

funny how "armchair bootlickers" like XM are secretly welcomed in SG thou. We have many "armchair bootlickers" writing rubbish like "LKY brought SG from 3rd world to 1st" in the papers when the person who did that was Dr Goh Keng Swee.

what weird logic some people have.
Cynic
May 24, 2006   11:42 PM PDT
 
Just a thought here. In all the postings here, no matter whether one agrees if our ministers should be paid so highly, we assume that the performance of our ministers have a great impact on our economic performance. Now to be Devil's Advocate, is there really a causal link between the calibre of ministers and economic performance? You must be thinking that I am questioning the obvious much like doubting whether gravity causes apples to fall but you may note that in developed countries, the calibre of politicians have limited impact on the economy. The American economist Paul Krugman who wrote numerous books for the laymen on economics have pointed out in his book "Peddling Prosperity" that when one studies the numbers, there really is little relationship between the failures and successes of the American government and economic performance.
The reason seems to be that the economic growth of a developed economy is mainly driven by the private sector rather than the government. Or to put it bluntly, the government can do all the bullshit and wayang it wants, at the end of the day, it is the private enterprise that gets the real work done. If you look at Taiwan, one wonders how they can still be doing quite well despite having such incompetent politicians. Is this a case of the private sector doing so well DESPITE the government? If the causal relationship between calibre of politicians and economic performance is weak, perhaps our politicians do not deserve so much credit after all.
Even if thus hypothesis is false and there really is a strong causal relationship, should the "performance" of politicians be measured by economic growth? What is the use of economic growth if at the end of the day, it leaves out a large segment of the population? Economic growth then merely perpetuates income inequality and tensions within the society. More efforts should go into ensuring that the lower income people benefit from growth and for this reason, I applaud LTK's suggestion to peg ministers' salary to the lower 20% of the population. If not there is nothing to discourage our ministers from spending their efforts to just make all the directors, CEOs and senior management of large corporations get richer. Afterall the increase in national income (ie. growth) is just a reflection of the huge jump in wealth amassed for the rich.
Curious
May 24, 2006   11:02 PM PDT
 
Gayle, may I offer you some of my thoughts on this matter?

The question of paying our ministers and top civil servants 100 times more than the national average income should not be judged by comparing with what other countries do, but by the merits and demerits per se. I think
some of these may be inferred from your blog. Permit me to verbalise a couple of them.

I believe the government has a good and valid reason: to attract and retain good talent. It may have given other reasons in the past like prevention of corruption, (which does not sound very convincing since our CPIB has a very efficient and unbiased record) but I think they are minor. Let us then look at what kind of talent is needed. Singapore Inc is a very
large multinational with a lot of investments in a large number of
industries. Singapore by its small size and lack of resources needs to be super efficient to do well economically in the rapidly changing world. Therefore, the argument goes that we need top managers to manage our economy. What does it mean to be super efficient? 6 sigma? Pressure cooker training of new recruits (our youths)? Import of foreign talent? This management style may work well for a company. Some may agree that a degree of ruthlessness is even necessary. We have
prospered very well as a result of this type of management in the hands of the ruling government. You must agree that the PAP deserves a pat on the back.

But aren't we forgetting that Singapore Inc is a nation of people? What are we going to do with our old, those who have become inefficient and those who
cannot take the high pressure of super-efficiency? Are our super-manager civil servants the best talents also for this "non-productive" work of looking after our "discards" (I apologize for using such strong and offensive language)? Compassion is not a talent. Can we judge whether a super-manager has compassion from his record of earning profits for a company? Will a high pay attract people with compassion? What are the chances that the high pay will attract someone who is only there for the money, who quits after a couple of years? Many companies have experienced CEOs who quit immediately after giving themselves huge bonuses? Are there safeguards that the same will not happen to highly paid civil servants?

I am fairly confident that those who go into the civil service to serve the
people do not really need huge salaries for motivation. Are there so few of them around? Is this a reflection of the kind of people that our super-manager civil servants are helping to breed? Gayle, you must be a rare specimen!

Maybe someone can work out a system to tie top civil servants' pay to how well they are taking care of our poor, sick, old and non-productive fraction of the population.
brandonoid
May 24, 2006   09:18 PM PDT
 
The following comment was left by XM. It is somewhat badly thought out, as I shall demonstrate line by line:

>Dear Gayle,
She can't possibly be very dear to XM given the way he addresses her below.


>I have taken note of you for some
>time. Your "blogs" consist of

This is only a single "blog."

>nothing but pretentious,
>disingenuous potshots at the
>decency of our Government. For

I don't think she is pretending at anything: these really are her opinions. Therefore, it is also inaccurate to call it disingenuous, because she states that these are her personal opinions, and they are hardly insincerely felt.

>the most part, readers can
>discount the offensiveness

Who is being offended? She is calling for accountability. I am hardly offended when someone calls for public money (my, and your, money) to be more responsibly spent.

>because of your immaturity but

If XM didn't know she was 17, would he have said the same thing about 'immaturity?' This is argument ex post facto.

>you are dangerously close to
>crossing the line.

XM has not defined the line, and therefore the parameters of his objection.

>The point is this. Whomever you
>criticize must be granted a right-
>of-reply, published in full. In an

Indeed, people can reply, and anyone can read the reply, in full, in her comments box, just as XM, and I, have done. Unlike print media, where due to space constraints, replies are necessarily edited or selectively published, this blog makes public all replies that one is willing to post.

>unregulated medium like the
>internet however, the very people

The Internet _is_ regulated in Singapore, to prevent the trafficking of illegal software and pornography, for instance. Perhaps XM means something else.

>whom you criticize do not typically
>read or participate in it.

How do XM know this? According to the Singapore Who's Who, the Prime Minister's personal interests include computers and IT, and he is known for receiving and reading email petitions from our citizens. It is indeed patronising, or even offensive, to insinuate that our political leaders are computer illiterate or do not care for technology, when IT is being actively promoted by the country.

>Therefore, there is no reasonable
>expectation for your victims to

One can hardly call them victims.

>address your accusations here.
>The internet is thus an unsuitable
>medium for serious debate.

Not necessarily so. Many academic journals are now being published solely online; one cannot claim that their content is trivial. The British Medical Journal, for instance, publishes rapid responses to research and opinion articles online, of which some are selected for print. The Straits Times also has an online forum page, which publishes letters that the printed forum cannot accomodate. That does not make them any less valid.

>If you feel strongly about an
>issue, the right recourse is to

The use of the word 'recourse' is not quite idiomatic. Perhaps XM means 'course of action;' the two are quite easily confused (cf. Fowler's Modern Eng. Usage).

>write to the relevant ministry, or
>to the local newspapers, where a
>fair, two-way public debate can be
>conducted.

That is also a possibility. Indeed, Gayle _has_ had an email exchange with a permanent secretary, as well as an report and a review article about her blog and the views therein published in the Straits Times. One might reasonably say that she has done what XM suggested.

>The truth is that the fallacy in
>your ministerial salary arguments
>can be easily demonstrated. But I
>shan't do so here, because it
>simply is not the correct medium.

This is a rhetorical device known as simple evasion. If the fallacies are 'easily demonstrated,' then it is unusual that XM does not bother to demonstrate them and resolve the issue once and for all. Why does he deny himself a fair hearing? Perhaps his arguments do have merit. Unfortunately, one shall never know.

>Think about it.

It has been thought about, and found wanting.
brandonoid
May 24, 2006   09:18 PM PDT
 
The following comment was left by XM. It is somewhat badly thought out, as I shall demonstrate line by line:

>Dear Gayle,
She can't possibly be very dear to XM given the way he addresses her below.


>I have taken note of you for some
>time. Your "blogs" consist of

This is only a single "blog."

>nothing but pretentious,
>disingenuous potshots at the
>decency of our Government. For

I don't think she is pretending at anything: these really are her opinions. Therefore, it is also inaccurate to call it disingenuous, because she states that these are her personal opinions, and they are hardly insincerely felt.

>the most part, readers can
>discount the offensiveness

Who is being offended? She is calling for accountability. I am hardly offended when someone calls for public money (my, and your, money) to be more responsibly spent.

>because of your immaturity but

If XM didn't know she was 17, would he have said the same thing about 'immaturity?' This is argument ex post facto.

>you are dangerously close to
>crossing the line.

XM has not defined the line, and therefore the parameters of his objection.

>The point is this. Whomever you
>criticize must be granted a right-
>of-reply, published in full. In an

Indeed, people can reply, and anyone can read the reply, in full, in her comments box, just as XM, and I, have done. Unlike print media, where due to space constraints, replies are necessarily edited or selectively published, this blog makes public all replies that one is willing to post.

>unregulated medium like the
>internet however, the very people

The Internet _is_ regulated in Singapore, to prevent the trafficking of illegal software and pornography, for instance. Perhaps XM means something else.

>whom you criticize do not typically
>read or participate in it.

How do XM know this? According to the Singapore Who's Who, the Prime Minister's personal interests include computers and IT, and he is known for receiving and reading email petitions from our citizens. It is indeed patronising, or even offensive, to insinuate that our political leaders are computer illiterate or do not care for technology, when IT is being actively promoted by the country.

>Therefore, there is no reasonable
>expectation for your victims to

One can hardly call them victims.

>address your accusations here.
>The internet is thus an unsuitable
>medium for serious debate.

Not necessarily so. Many academic journals are now being published solely online; one cannot claim that their content is trivial. The British Medical Journal, for instance, publishes rapid responses to research and opinion articles online, of which some are selected for print. The Straits Times also has an online forum page, which publishes letters that the printed forum cannot accomodate. That does not make them any less valid.

>If you feel strongly about an
>issue, the right recourse is to

The use of the word 'recourse' is not quite idiomatic. Perhaps XM means 'course of action;' the two are quite easily confused (cf. Fowler's Modern Eng. Usage).

>write to the relevant ministry, or
>to the local newspapers, where a
>fair, two-way public debate can be
>conducted.

That is also a possibility. Indeed, Gayle _has_ had an email exchange with a permanent secretary, as well as an report and a review article about her blog and the views therein published in the Straits Times. One might reasonably say that she has done what XM suggested.

>The truth is that the fallacy in
>your ministerial salary arguments
>can be easily demonstrated. But I
>shan't do so here, because it
>simply is not the correct medium.

This is a rhetorical device known as simple evasion. If the fallacies are 'easily demonstrated,' then it is unusual that XM does not bother to demonstrate them and resolve the issue once and for all. Why does he deny himself a fair hearing? Perhaps his arguments do have merit. Unfortunately, one shall never know.

>Think about it.

It has been thought about, and found wanting.
XXM
May 24, 2006   07:58 PM PDT
 
dun play play with XM hor... PM, SM, MM... wonder what XM stands for... (X)ensor Minister?
natalinasmpf
May 24, 2006   07:06 PM PDT
 
I believe this student's sketchpad strip fits this issue perfectly:

http://studentssketchpad.blogspot.com/2006/01/story-of-meritocratic-jesus.html

11th panel.
Care
May 24, 2006   06:22 PM PDT
 
I like the approach advocated by the Workers party (which obviously has got buried and conveniently forgotten by the pro-govt media) : peg our Ministers' salaries to the salaries of the lowest 20% income group. Make sure that our Ministers and govt work for the betterment of this bottom 20%, then they deserve better!
Rhys1066
May 24, 2006   06:09 PM PDT
 
The question in the issue of ministerial salaries is how high is high enough to deter corruption?

I think the issue is becoming more of a political hot potato now is because the globalisation has hastened the inevitable loss of job security and increased the wild swings of business cycles. As the citizenry becomes more aware through internet, reading other sources of information, benchmarking itself globally, we start to realise, hey, we are paying our ministers well, in fact wayyyyyyyy too well as compared to international benchmarks (of developed countries).

The previous continued strong economic growth sputters when we encounter economic and financial tsunamis of the mid-80s recession as well as the late 90s financial crisis and while the PAP govt tries to claim credit that its policies have mitigated the economic fallout from such global/regional downsturns, we start to wonder is it a case of that the cock claims his crowing makes the sun rise?

Granted, we need to pay politicians enough for the ministerial jobs but when politicians start to show their lack of political awareness especially during the recently concluded GE2006, we realise that *gasp* some of them could just be figureheads who reads out scripts written by the professional civil servants. And perhaps, you may not need to pay that much for someone just to communicate the policies to the proletariat.
A-Priori
May 24, 2006   06:06 PM PDT
 
The pay in the private sector (which I believe is the govt's benchmark) always pegs the individual's salary vs his alternative.

The simplistic assumption is that the alternative needs to have been freely exercised in the past so that the government is not paying way above market.

Has there been a case when a minister is so highly sought after by (say) IBM or any other MNC that he has chosen to quit his post so as to be compensated in kind? Conversely, has the inverse happened? My wager is that the latter is disproportionately higher than the former.

In any case the company analogy is flawed because of the lack of transparency from the Ministers who should be analogus to the board of directors.
Kelvin
May 24, 2006   05:35 PM PDT
 
hmnnnn just one more thought:

It struck me as I was writing a report for work. =)

Your observations vis-a-vis the incumbent Government's argument about high ministerial pay as a mechanism to eradicate corruption are slightly off target and out of context. Yes, it is true that corruption is about using one's position to profit and that such high pay does eradicate the need to profit from it illegally.

However, I believe that the intention behind that argument is that the ministers would then have no incentive to receive illicit payments from private parties / vendors who would provide inferior goods and services to the public.

I could be wrong. =) But hey, I like to hope.
Kelvin
May 24, 2006   05:35 PM PDT
 
hmnnnn just one more thought:

It struck me as I was writing a report for work. =)

Your observations vis-a-vis the incumbent Government's argument about high ministerial pay as a mechanism to eradicate corruption are slightly off target and out of context. Yes, it is true that corruption is about using one's position to profit and that such high pay does eradicate the need to profit from it illegally.

However, I believe that the intention behind that argument is that the ministers would then have no incentive to receive illicit payments from private parties / vendors who would provide inferior goods and services to the public.

I could be wrong. =) But hey, I like to hope.
KLY
May 24, 2006   05:13 PM PDT
 
Gayle,
its wonderful to read your blog.
You are insightful and analytical and idealistic.
Personally, I would take the CPI with a pinch of salt. How do they measure the degree of corruption anyway? Does that mean that Singapore is more corrupt than NZ? In what way?
Minister's salaries are pretty high.
But the government of the day does have the right to decide how much to pay itself. Whether it prevents corruption is purely a matter of opinion. I don't believe it can. As Rockerfella said when asked "How much money is enough?" he replied "More". Such is the nature of Greed and human nature.
Corruption can be obvious or subtle or disguised. In other Asian countries perhaps it is more obvious.
High ministerial pay is by me as long as they do their job well. They must be mindful that the more their pay is, the more will be expected of them. And unless the political system changes, the party in power can still be voted out if they are unpopular enough.
My own concern is that the poor are not marginalised, and cost of living be kept affordable. Remember that the lower middle and lower income group make up the majority of any population in any country....except perhaps the Vatican!
ice
May 24, 2006   05:11 PM PDT
 
the amount you quoted are actual cash received by the ministers. we are no wiser as to how much are the benefits in kind.

i also believe their income are tax free? and there is a pension for them?

and all the job offers from private sectors (not to mention government link companies) when ministers step down ... that s a benefits you can never put a price on.

having full transparency on all the above will be a good step forward.

since MM scolded a foreign reporter recently when he asked for details, i dont think we will get any answer anytime soon.

whatever justification they have, they have lost the moral high ground (as the wp has said) when they linnk public service with monetary reward.
Zack
May 24, 2006   05:07 PM PDT
 
Dear Gayle,

Nice work. However, I do have some thoughts on this piece.

1. You mentioned an initial analogy which I have still yet to grasp. Firstly, you wrote: "High ministerial salaries simply permit the PAP to use their position in order to profit legally". But which kind of rightful professional occupation (i.e. excluding assasins, killers and the likes), remunerated by high salaries, is illegal? And since I cannot think of any, then this claim is reduced to an accusation of X organization using their position for Y purposes, implied illicitly. No? Following this, you offered a simple analogy of shoplifting as non-illegal where there are no laws against shoplifting. First of all, arguably, one cannot conclude that that it is legal to do something when there are no laws against that act. In a recent case of a German cannibal, surprisingly there are no laws against cannibalism in Germany but our german man-eater was still detained now facing trial. Perhaps all we can say here is that it really depends on the context. Secondly, how is shoplifting an unethical act when the way you have illustrated the analogy sounded nearly like picking a wildflower while strolling in an equally open field?

2. I appreciate that you are arguing both sides of the problem. However, one cannot claim that the primary incentive for corruption is money without more evidence. The world of politics as someone once said before is a place filled with lions and foxes. It may jolly well seem that the foxes always go hunting for big fat rabbits which then seemed to run straight into their paths. But who can say if the lions were the ones whose presence these rabbits were fleeing from, or the foxes forced to hunt to appease the lions somehow? Who knows? At best, we can say that corruption is undesirable, but to pronounce that the primary incentive is money is really another big, unsubstantiated claim.

3. Your counter example of W is rather hilarious, but inappropriate. I would not even pay him pennies really, much less than the amount quoted in one of the posts as his salary. All I can say here is that though I appreciate your rhetoric, but to sound quite worldly at the start and to retreat into an idealistic world where public servants as martyrs to the good regime did more harm than good for your psychological argument here.

4. NZ ministers can be paid many times less or many times more because it is the practice of NZ to do that. X country ministers serve voluntarily without getting paid and some are good and some are corrupt. Money as renumeration really has nothing to do with some abstract corruption index whose methodologies are in question depending on which cultural and/or local practice indicators one uses to assemble this data. Sure, let's assume that it is a competent indicator for a start, but to say that because one is more bad then one should get less is really saying two things: (a) it is okay to be bad, let's just vary the pay to go along with how bad or good you are (b) it is okay to be bad, let's pay more to the baddies so they have a chance to become good. I don't need to go on to state the ethical problematics with this argument?

5. I think that it is not only that we are implying that they cannot be trusted, but we are ourselves implying that we are just as corrupt in the way it has been framed to add dimes for goodness.

6. The multi-tasking ministers argument is not convincing. Yes, the ministers are multi-taskers holding multiple positions. However, we have to ask ourselves a few questions first before we accept the problematic conclusion from this allegedly problematic situation:
(a) Who, really, in a small city state like Singapore with a limited talent pinnacle pool, who rises to the top 1% of the country, don't hold chairman or CEO or CFO in this organization and that company?
(b) Following (a), does it mean that holding many positions across many boards literally mean spreading my 15 hours workday across the same number of positions? Highly unlikely. People still lead 15 hours day but they structure it as they deem fit according to varying demands. Many are simply name in sake positions.
(c) Does it mean that if my MP as a person is the only person taking care of the entire area as his office? Again, no. The MP is just one person, perhaps with good amount of power to do things, but there are equally a good number of foot soldiers under the MP who are running the day to day schematics for the general populace. I would also want my MP to have more experience across the board, so that he or she is perhaps a more well-rounded person?
(d) I don't know who Steve Chia is but maybe he could have caught sight of a long line on a long day as well? Some days the lines to my local movie theater are long, some days they are short. To conclude that lines are always long after seeing one long line is probably another big claim as well.

All said, I admire your eloquence to give shape to a difficult and hard to voice topic. I don't think I could have done better, and my points here are really meant as a counter-argument, if rendered validly, for others to think about after reading your well written post.

Best.
A-Priori
May 24, 2006   05:06 PM PDT
 
kwayteowman, appreciate your attempt at a balanced perspective, but:

Ministerial salaries are/and continue to be an issue. Using the company analogy that you and the govt proposed, the salaries of CEOs are decided upon by a board of directors who are accountable to shareholders.

Perhaps the requirement of staff by ex-US persidents is also for security reasons. After all, I'd hardly think the assasination of any one of our ministers is high on Al Qaeda's list?

In any case, our minister's pay is in rarefied air. Even first world countries without the luxury of Air Force One do not lavish such large salaries.

Yes, in relation to the progress package, a minister's pay is insignificant. To paraphrase what Gayle said, TT Durai could find lots of justification for his salary in this forum.

One leg up I'd give the ex-US presidents though that our Singaporean Ministers don't have. They make excellent $ doing the guest speaker circuits. We tried getting the elder George Bush in Uni and his fees were pretty astronomical.
kp
May 24, 2006   04:36 PM PDT
 
+++

Managing ministerial salaries ensures, too, that people do not enter politics simply to gain from the high pay and benefits, but that they do so because they genuinely want to put their talents to the good use of representing the country.

+++

My failed attempted at trying to post a comment. HAikkk!

Anyway that is so precisely true! Steve Jobs (vision + conviction) was paid an annual salary of USD$1. True that he did get other kick backs and stock options but these are pretty much like a variable BONUS. He won’t be getting no jet plane if he wasn’t selling so many of those dang iPods.

And also pointing out to previous comment, the US president has use of the motorcade and also Airforce One while in office (correct me if I am wrong). So there has to be a better/ fairer way to peg their BONUS to their performances.
NameConcerned
May 24, 2006   04:11 PM PDT
 
I think XM is out of sync with the new technology that is available in today's world. Most media are tightly controlled by either the govt of the day or by interest groups.

The internet and even the coffee shops allow ideas to flourish. If XM wants to "ban" or "manage" the internet good luck to him. It will take enormous resources to manage the internet.

The best approach is for the govt to engage the people not only in the grassroots but also in awkward places like the internet, just like the 2PS of Foreign Affairs Dept did recently. To ban it is to go down the silppery slope to dictatoship. I think XM should read carefully what Thomas Sowell has to says below :

"What is ominous is the ease with which some people go from saying that they don't like something to saying that the government should forbid it. When you go down that road, don't expect freedom to survive very long."
- Thomas Sowell
Ron
May 24, 2006   04:11 PM PDT
 
Dear Gayle,

I've been reading your entries and i've enjoyed everyone one of them! =)

Share an old saying;

You can fool someone all the time, everyone sometime, but you can't fool everyone everytime....

Just wondering when will be that time in regards to ministerial pay package...

Everytime I saw the news on Durai, the picture in my mind somehow shows the man in whites (i wonder why my mind keep doing that, can anyone help to rationalise this for me?)


kwayteowman
May 24, 2006   04:03 PM PDT
 
XM,

I agree with you. It would be a disaster if the Ministers spent all their time searching the Internet and replying to random people who spout nonsense in their spare time.

That said, there are two things I wish to highlight for your kind attention: (1) Like it or not, the Govt is in no position to regulate the Internet. Your people at MICA have no clue what's going on. The Internet has a life of its own and you really cannot stop it. You sound like you are from the PAP. :-) I would recommend that you convince your bosses to go think about how to manage dissent on the Internet. I actually don't have anything good to offer you except that legal action or attempts to ban people from speaking out is NOT going to work. :-) (2) Gayle is a sweet little girl who have a good head and who cares about her nation and her people. Please cut her a bit of slack. :-P Give her some time. I am certain that she will grow up to become a constructive critic of the Govt in the near future (if she doesn't get co-opted into the bureaucracy). :-)

Let me do the Govt a favour and play the devil's advocate on this issue. Perhaps people will hereby label me pro-PAP -- but seriously, not like I care what people think. :-P After all, I'm only a chow blogger, whose sole purpose in life (at this point at least) is to sow (intellectual) dissent, spout random nonsense and promote intellectual discourse.

+++++++++++++++++

The current somewhat high salaries of the Ministers should be viewed in perspective. The Ministers have at their disposal annual budgets in the billions and thousands of people reporting to them. In this regard, their influence is no less than that of the CEOs and seriously, $1 to 2 million is not too much to pay a CEO. Any mistake made by a Minister is liable to cost the nation millions of dollars. The pay actually does commensurate in my opinion with the size of the job.

The allegation that the Ministers have security of tenure is unfounded since there are some who get dropped. I actually applaud the PAP for this. It would perhaps improve public perception if the fellas are who dropped don't get plonked into other cushy jobs. Nevertheless, I also think it would be quite cruel to persuade someone to stand for election, elevate him to Minister, tell him/her he cannot make it and then cast him aside. Therefore, I'm not too unhappy with the present state of things.

The comparisons between the salaries of our Ministers to that of other world leaders is unfair because they have not taken into account the non-monetary perks that many other world leaders receive. E.g. Bush gets to fly in Air Force One. after his tenure ends, he is entitled to an office and to staff for life. British ministers get to live in nice houses courtesy of the Queen. There are also unquatifiable and unspeakable monetary payments that are made under the table which CANNOT be quantified. Singapore is one of the few countries (only) where such hidden perks have been systematically removed. I actually like our system. :-) And perhaps I'm naive and stupid, but I honestly believe that no money is changing hands under the table in Singapore at the very high levels. Those who think otherwise should mind their gap unless they have proof othewise (perhaps a CCTV cambera recording?) :-P

Finally, we have to take the salaries paid to the ministers in perspective. It costs us something like $30 million a year to pay the Ministers. Perhaps more this year 'cos we seem to have a lot more cooks. Nevertheless, what's $30 million compared to the $2.6 billion Progress Package?

*sigh* It is sad that people are small-minded and tend to miss the forest for the trees and nit-pick on issues such as the Ministerial salaries. Can you blame them? I suspect that they learnt this from the Govt, c.f. Gomez, dunno what lift upgrading.

Neverthless, I must admit that it's an emotional issue. I suspect that a lot of it stems from envy. Most people just cannot imagine making a million bucks a year. Singaporeans don't understand capitalism and cannot think big. That's the real reason why the SMCs cannot make it and the GLCs dominate in my opinion. :-P

I do however share Gayle's reservations about the current MP allowances which stand at $13K. Seems pretty indefensible for a part time job. :-P

+++++++++++++++++++++

XM,

Okay, I hope that I have added some balance to this matter and proven that the bloggers are not raving lunatics out to discredit the Govt, spread dissent and de-stabilize the nation. :-)

My parting note to you is that I DO NOT AGREE with you that "the internet medium, unless properly regulated, is therefore flawed as a platform for debating serious issues." The Internet is most definitely a suitable and good platform on which to debate serious issues. The Govt's problem is that the MICA people are inept and have NO CLUE about what's going on. :-P Get them to get off their butts and to use their brain and think out of the box. Regulation is not the only solution. Let me give you a hint: think EDUCATION (not brainwashing hor, education). :-)
OLD FART
May 24, 2006   03:43 PM PDT
 
Dear XM,

As you suggest, please do not repeat yourself. We are here to express our idea and ideology without bounds. That how the human race progress. yes, we don't expect MP to surf and reply us(they are part-timers), and your threat about seditious and rebellious, sound so fimilar to what Singaporeans are use to. Remember, these english educated highly intelligent radicals nowadays don't just be intimidated by old stories about fighting communist, or what nots. They are not interest in the past, but very engaged in the present and planning much for the future. the 66.6% shows. Do not forever write off the younger generation grouses, right or wrong, do engaged them in thoughts and purposes. If our soceity is so easily destroyed by a 17 year old girl, then it not much a society then, for all the rantings about nation building by government, it can be waylaid by a 17 year old, then whatever boast of 1st world, is just pissing in the wind. Remember, if you are that good, if you are a man six feet tall, and some little girl pass a remark that you are only four feet tall, and you need to sue for defamation, then, I really don't think you are six feet tall, if you can't face up to it.

I am very sad for you. I am very sad for those people you wants to protect, I am shame for our country, that in solving problems by a ban. You are the type of people who is blind to the whole world around you.
Tim
May 24, 2006   03:41 PM PDT
 
The luxury cars and private homes in Singapore are very expensive, along with the petrol costs, so are the rising costs of (local and overseas)education that ministers have to pay for their children.

And we don't know how much legal fees ministers have to incur in legal matters concerning their job, along with miscellaneous costs in paying their employees.
Cail
May 24, 2006   03:40 PM PDT
 
I applause on your article on the salaries. I must say you are excellent in hitting the bull's eye.

Although deep down my heart, I would like you to write similar insightful article in the future, I think you need to be careful not to step on other's foot. Many faced the same dilemma on whether we should speak with conscience or accept reality. I guess many like me chose the later.

In reality, fact can be twisted by the person why power and the weak has to suffer the consequence. Please bear that in mind what you think as fact today can be twisted by the people and used against you.

Linking high salaries to corruption and the integrity of MP is dangerous. If CSJ would have written this article instead of the NKF during election, do you think he will suffer the same fate?

I sincerely hope that you can continue to write and create awareness to more young singaporeans.

Write with cautious.

Cail.
gayle
May 24, 2006   03:36 PM PDT
 
Oh, sorry: the post below is from me, and not Kelvin. His name was the last thing I read and my fingers had a Freudian slip of sorts.
Kelvin
May 24, 2006   03:35 PM PDT
 
XM,

I hope this will be the last comment I have to make on an issue I feel is going nowhere.

"Your misguided allegations"

- What allegations have I made against the PAP specific to this post, which has got you so worked up? PM Lee has a salary of 1.9+ million SGD. MPs are paid 11+ k a month. They do not work full-time. To my knowledge, all these things are facts. The rest are my expressed opinions about the implications of these facts.

"and rebellious charges incite dissent against the Government and discord in our society. "

Never, ever have I advocated rebellion or discord. All I am advocating is the right for us to have an opinion and voice it. I have many opinions. I voice them. But I would never tolerate nor incite violence or hatred to achieve some kind of personal agenda. I find it curiously ironic that you accuse me of misguided allegations and unfounded charges when you are making me the victim of precisely such actions.

"The seditious undertones in your prose is clear"

seditious:
adj 1: arousing to action or rebellion [syn: incendiary, incitive, inflammatory, instigative, rabble-rousing] 2: in opposition to a civil authority or government [syn: insurgent, subversive]

I've said it before but I'll say it again - perhaps I haven't been clear. I am NOT anti-PAP. I am NOT anti-establishment. I am NOT instigating rebellion. That does NOT mean I agree completely with everything the government does.

"despite your attempts to packaged it as a pseudo-literary discourse."

You want me to apologize for writing like I mean it?

"Your abuse of the internet is examplary of why this medium needs to be better managed, on or off elections."

You are saying the Internet now needs to be clamped down on, because people have chosen to 'abuse' an open and non-exclusive arena of intellectual debate, and actually have independent opinions.

"I do not like to repeat myself but I will say two things. One, your arguments, which by the way has been expounded ad nauseum by others before you, can be easily dismissed, but this is not the proper medium for doing so."

You come to my online blog, you say you have been reading it for a long time, you make wild accusations about my motives, and you walk away without even dignifying your conduct with a reason why you think I am wrong. Obviously the problem is not having a right of reply, but choosing not to exercise it, and in doing so, not letting -me- have a chance to defend myself against your allegations.

"Two, there can be no reasonable expectation of a right-of-reply through this medium. Ministers, MPs, and government officials are busy people and their job scope does not include "searching and replying to web/blog entries". "

Only today I read an article about Denise Phua, a member of the PAP, doing - guess what - surfing blogs and the Internet. And last I heard, MICA had declared their specific and purposeful intention to trawl the Internet in order to measure its impact on elections. Time, effort and money being channelled into the Internet because it is a means through which public sentiment can be gauged; clearly you are being unfairly dismissive of its reach.

"The internet medium, unless properly regulated, is therefore flawed as a platform for debating serious issues."

What is your alternative again? Mainstream media, with selectivity, censorship, lag time in response, shelf life for a 'serious issue' before the next one comes along?

------------

I've said my piece and I don't wish for this to become a protracted debate if you consistently refuse to be clear about why you think I am an ungrateful, immature rebel. This is all very draining. Hopefully this will be the end of it.

Respectfully yours,
Gayle.
A-Priori
May 24, 2006   03:27 PM PDT
 
Well said.

If your writing was truly "pretentious" and "disingenious", individuals like XM would have nothing to fear. So much, to the extent that he/she would would have no need to hide behind a pair of initials?

This megalomaniac seeks to define your (and the internet's) boundaries. Perhaps he might be powerful enough to lower the price of oil while he is at it too?

I wonder why other "first world" countries do not see the need to police each blog with or without political content.

If this individual fears that an opposing view may/man not be published in your blog. Well, how does it feel, little man, to be on the other side of the 140th?

One suspects that the said individual has a personal stake in the issue at hand. The pseudo-legalese he spouts could indicate a background in law. Maybe even a product of our world class institutions?

*snicker*
Kelvin
May 24, 2006   03:09 PM PDT
 
XM,

and yet, right here, Gayle is giving you a medium to reply to her post and you have done so twice without any real substance.

Your suggestions regarding alternative proper mediums for real substantive debate is laughable for obvious reasons. Perhaps next you might want to propose that Gayle goes to the Speaker's Corner to yell out her views instead of posting them here. That is if the police gives the license of course. Wouldn't want to do anything illegal now, would we?

While you rightly pointed out that the Internet is flawed as a medium of serious debate since not EVERYONE visits the blog and responds, it at least gives you the opportunity of response as opposed to the main broadsheet.

Furthermore, I find it strange that you, on one hand, attribute the limitations on the right to response to the inability of individuals to come to this blog and yet , on the other hand, suggest that these posts sows discord in society? Let us not even go into the discussion on whether discord and disagreement is a good thing. =)

Funnily enough, you seem to also suggest that dissent towards the government is a negative thing. Surely then LKY sowed discord and encouraged dissent in the 1950s! Maybe he should have been dealt with, eh?

Well, the perfect medium would be a live telecast of a no-holds barred discussion between everyone! I would like to know how that is done though..=) and if you could do it, perhaps you might want to think about a career in event management. *grin*

you know what, you're funny, I'll give you that.
XM
May 24, 2006   02:50 PM PDT
 
Dear Gayle,

Your misguided allegations and rebellious charges incite dissent against the Government and discord in our society. The seditious undertones in your prose is clear despite your attempts to packaged it as a pseudo-literary discourse. Your abuse of the internet is examplary of why this medium needs to be better managed, on or off elections.

I do not like to repeat myself but I will say two things. One, your arguments, which by the way has been expounded ad nauseum by others before you, can be easily dismissed, but this is not the proper medium for doing so. Two, there can be no reasonable expectation of a right-of-reply through this medium. Ministers, MPs, and government officials are busy people and their job scope does not include "searching and replying to web/blog entries". The internet medium, unless properly regulated, is therefore flawed as a platform for debating serious issues.

Without prejudice,
XM
Kelvin
May 24, 2006   02:40 PM PDT
 
Hi Gayle,

Very impressive writing. I sympathise with your position (as any semi-intelligent person would) on the issue of our ministerial salaries. Ideally, we need public servants who truly seek to serve the public and that the monetary incentive for them to serve should not extend so far beyond what is necessary for the upkeep of themselves and their family at a decent level subject to a referendum maybe? (of course, what constitutes a 'decent level' is open to debate, but quantifying this will also mean that it will never reach the multi-million salaries being paid out now).

However, I think that while the ideal is admirable, the political truth could be that it just isn't attainable. Maybe there just isn't enough individuals who are both highly capable and who are also committed to the notion of public service with minimal monetary incentives. (Or at least they haven't been looking hard enough given the deluge of individuals rushing to get into public office because of the pay, who knows?)

Yes, it is easy to say 'then we should not have these people in office.' Yet, Singapore being Singapore in this global system, there is little room for big glaring mistakes in economic, political and social policy and to avoid these we need capable people, whatever their motivation.

"But their salaries don't commensurate with what they deliver! Am I x times better off than Americans?!!"

Perhaps we are not x times better off than our American counterparts, and probably never will be despite the gulf in the salaries of our politicians. However, it might also be useful to ask the reverse: How much worse off would we be without the efforts of these individuals? Can we then quantify their worth from this starting point? Perhaps the numbers will be very different when approached from this particular perspective.

None of us here or otherwise has all the answers to how things should be done.

=) I applaud your efforts and I think that the discussions you have generated will contribute to the evolution of our thought processes.
sharlet
May 24, 2006   02:37 PM PDT
 
Here's another interesting tidbit: Chan Soo Sen loves his alcohol. My cousin saw him drunk, red-faced and jolly one night. No wonder Joo Chiat is what it is now. Hah!
Singaporean
May 24, 2006   02:35 PM PDT
 
You don't actually get to meet your MP really. I ended up meeting a representative from the local RC and seems like everyone waiting in line that day had the same treatment; lots of one-to-one with these middle aged gentlemen taking down notes; it was noisy but effecient, asking questions in typical Singlish. I was alittle disappointed not having to see any "real MP" that night, but maybe that was a good thing?

From the look of things that night, I'm very sure these local volunteers have done this over & over again. Kudos to these wonderful gentlemen.

Anyhow, my SAF unit got the letter of petition from the MP's office and I got out of ICT.
sandy
May 24, 2006   02:23 PM PDT
 
i wonder whats the real reason you wrote so much in your blog. is is becos you are caught up with your sudden fame or u are really so concerned about the issues you raised.

i wonder too why you have so much free time.
excuse me if i dun really bother to read all the stuff you wrote, its too long and really nothing new.
LK
May 24, 2006   12:35 PM PDT
 
XM, I interpret your comments as:

1. giving Gayle a warning of crossing the lines which we should all be fearful.

2. SPH is the only right media for political discussions.

There are obvious fallacies in your comments too, but I shan't do so here, because it will be a distraction to the issue we're discussing here.

Think about it.

Back to the issue of ministerial salaries.

The government came out with a white paper in 1994 to provide a framework to peg ministers' salaries to the private sectors.

Beside preventing corruption, I believe the other key PAP argument for having competitive salaries for ministers, is to be able to attract able people into leadership positions.

I too find that it's a thin excuse for having million-dollar salaries to prevent corruption; after all, with a million dollars, most people can lead a very comfortable life style for their life time! The amount itself is just absurd.

But, in our society where one's success is measured by how much salary he's drawing, it could be a reality that competitive salaries are needed to attract able people into office.

And the PAP government has not been helpful to change our materialistic society as they themselves are using material means to lure the voters.

I remember one PAP candidate was saying during the election that our ministers would make more money if they were in the private sector when we all know that many of the ministers were straight from the SAF! Again, such typical PAP argument is not helpful in explaining to the man in the street on their perceived obscene salaries.

While the primary motivation for running for office and staying in office is the desire to serve the public, but the reality here is monetary reward is still a key factor.

Now, I think most people will agree that we need to pay decent salaries to our ministers, the question is how?

Pegging to top 8 earners in 6 professions is by definition an elitist formula that most (99%) will not agree. After all, the top 8 earners may not be the same top 8 earners every year, but the ministers are consistently well paid year after year. For now, I kind of like Low Thia Khiang's formula to peg the salaries to the lowest 10% of the citizens... at least morally it'll be easier to address the public reaction.
simplesandra
May 24, 2006   12:07 PM PDT
 
Simply put, the notion that you either pay ministers a huge salary or they become corrupt is itself absurb. Moreover, it even reeks of blackmail. It's an insult to the title "public servant" when the dedication of government officials is decided by how much money you stuff into their pockets.

And when you look at the ex-PAP MPs who are hauled to court for fraud and whatever, and the NKF fiasco that could be just the tip of the iceberg, you really have to ask yourself if the said notion actually works at all. :)
Ozymandias
May 24, 2006   11:37 AM PDT
 
I have to be such a stickler for definitions but...

The corruption perceptions index (CPI) does not say anything about how corrupt the cabinet of each country is. High ministerial salaries are not designed to lower corruption in the entire government or country but to reduce, ostensibly, the possibility of corruption in the cabinet.
rlim
May 24, 2006   10:29 AM PDT
 
A great article gayle. Recently I just posted my thots on the same topic on my blog too. As I wrote on my entry, I do not understand how someone can do on 3-6 high level positions and do an equally good job in all. The irony is here, when we don't perform to an acceptable level at work, when we do not contribute to our company enough, we are given pep talks, scoldings, warnings and sometimes, we are fired from our jobs. Yet, some people can take on many directorships and contribute in all of them??? I am really not convinced. Especially hard to accept is the fact that these people has the greater responsibility of serving the people who elected them. Anyway, would like to end with this comment on the comparison between President Bush wages against our Prime Minister's one. President Bush's base salary is low, however he does gets a lot of money during his election campaigning as well as ther endorsements,etc during his tenure. So its hard to say in the end how miuch does he actually gets out of being a President :)
gayle
May 24, 2006   10:29 AM PDT
 
Dear XM,

Thank you for your feedback, even if it is rather vitriolic.

I have something simple to say in reply. The very fact that you can criticize me, no, lambast me in such a manner shows that the Internet is an outstanding medium for debate because it excludes none. Your argument that no one reads it and hence has no right of reply falls. Mr. Bilahari Kausikan has read it, and replied. I've heard that other political figures read this blog as well. I know for sure that members of the SDA and the Workers' Party read it, as they've written to me or tagged before. If someone wishes to counter my arguments, all they have to do is type.

On the contrary, where is there limited to no right of reply? In a controlled media. Where letters can be censored, thrown away, or twisted, and a select group of people have control over what can be published. It is decided there who has the last say, and who has the best say.

You say my arguments can be rebutted. I have no doubt they can be. But what are your rebuttals? A decent thing to do would be to publish them here, so that we can decide for ourselves as a community.

You say I am close to crossing the line. It is an imaginary line. Why is it there in the first place? Because we have no right to question our ministers? Because we should accept everything told to us? Do you think that is truly healthy for our country

Let me tell you where -my- line is. I will not lie. I will not speak untruths, or base my arguments on anything less than fact. An elephant is an elephant; you can rant about its tail, I can grumble about its trunk, the person next to us can extol its tusks. We all have different things to say about the same animal and we must fix together these different perceptions, weed out the erroneous ones through vigorous debate, before we can approximate at a complete picture.

There is a name to my posts, an address, a school, a face, an identity. Do you think I am unaware that I am being held up to scrutiny every minute?

Conflicting signals everywhere. So many voices, each telling me different things. Speak. Don't speak. Speak carefully. Let loose. How do I decide?

Sooner or later I have to make a choice, and then I have to dignify my choice.

I do that through my writing.

Regards,
Gayle.
kelongkia
May 24, 2006   10:27 AM PDT
 
it will be interesting to know if Yeo Cheow Tong or Chan Soon Seng's new salary in the private sector(not GLC) can match their ministerial pay..

i.e if Mersk or Evergreen willing to pay our ex-transport minister the same salary or even more...
by then... i think we can rest our case and stop whinning....
kwokheng
May 24, 2006   09:59 AM PDT
 
Hmm... If there are so many who admire Gayle, who so willingly puts her name to her opinions, why is it that there are so many who do not do the same?

Maybe it is sufficient for them to say that they want to have an opinion, that they want to opine, but they are most unwilling to say, "I think."

Why all the pseudonyms?

Does one hide because they have something to hide? Or does one hide because they fear they may have something to hide?

kh
kwokheng
May 24, 2006   09:49 AM PDT
 
One wonders... That if Steve Jobs had no reputation of being a megalomaniac, wouldn't there be no Apple?

Sim Wong Hoo is after all an engineer; no artist.

kh
Elaine Giam
May 24, 2006   09:08 AM PDT
 
Gayle, if I may offer some feedback to make your well written commentary more comprehensive and in-depth, if not balanced. Then you could not be accused of launching a crusade against the PAP through your diatribes.

I think you should examine the flip side of the argument. That is, look at those countries aside from Singapore where rulers are paid very highly, on a purchasing power parity. I would not be surprised if many of these were resource-rich countries run by autocrats where the general population is languishing. If so, then that would certainly put the argument about good leadership correlated to good pay as neither here nor there, esp compared with western democracies where you can get equally good or bad leadership regardless of pay. In fact, anywhere in the world.

But more relevantly, pay probably has nothing to do with corruption nor good leadership. If you notice the least corrupt countries in the world, they're all pretty small in population size. And therein may lie the secret. That it's much easier to be corrupt in a populous country where local government and lower officials are more devolved and less subject to and further from higher scrutiny.
Name
May 24, 2006   08:19 AM PDT
 
XM, on the contrary, many here think that her blog is insightful, straight to the point, well researched and simple to understand, as for the immature comments, I like to ask you in what way did you contribute to the nation when you are 17, do that comparison to be fair.
As for dangerously close to crossing the line, if you wonder why so many follow Gayle's blog and supported and encouraged her is because she dare to cross the line, that imaginary line that was used so often to intimidate Singaporean into silence, replaced by a bias media that is ranked 140th in the world for press freedom, so much for your advise on writing to the local newspaper,
Expect this line to be tested and cross, if not by Gayle, then many other like minded Singaporeans from now on, like an invisible Berlin Wall, it will be smashed not by hammer but ideas, information and questioning of policy without fear.

I urge you to think about that and be a part of this inevitable change for a better Singapore.
Our loyalty is to our nation, not any political party.
Anon
May 24, 2006   07:40 AM PDT
 
Hi Gayle, I don't want to demoralise or scare you, but I do think you're pushing the OB markers a bit far by touching on the issue of ministerial salaries. The founding father and a few of his associates, have never hesitated to come down hard on those who dared question the high salaries of office-holders. I hope you'll have better luck.

Incidentally, George W Bush, has been paid US$400K per annum since he came into office in 2001. It was Clinton who raised the salary of the next pesidential office holder to US$400K from US$200K (the amount Clinton himself earned during his time as President). US laws stipulated that the incumbent President could only raise the salary of the next President.

You might be interested to know that some American office holders magnanimously donate their entire salaries to charitable organisations or back to the state. Eg: Mayor Bloomberg of NYC and Gov Schwarzenegger of California decline to be paid for doing their highly demanding and difficult jobs. Population of NYC = >8m. Population of California = >34m. Historically, Presidents Washington and Kennedy both donated their entire salaries.

Of course, the PAP govt will, doubtless, point to the fact that the Americans who declined or donated their salaries are wealthy in their own right. Sure. Singapore too has a number of the PAP ministers and MPs who made or continue to make obscene sums of money from their previous or other jobs. Yet, have we heard any of them donating their salaries or even just a fraction of their salaries to the state coffers?

The fall of any dynasty or empire is always always always preceded by moral decline. We are watching the beginning of the end here. But it is the citizens who pay the high price :(
Leopsyche
May 24, 2006   05:59 AM PDT
 
Dear Cynic,

"Now this then begs the question of since our ministers are the most well paid in the world, how come they are NOT delivering relative to OTHER government who are paid lesser?"

In the spirit of your nickname, I am wondering whether the ministers are going to claim the 'uniqueness' of Singapore as an explanation.

Yours,
Leopsyche
XM
May 24, 2006   05:47 AM PDT
 
Dear Gayle,

I have taken note of you for some time. Your "blogs" consist of nothing but pretentious, disingenuous potshots at the decency of our Government. For the most part, readers can discount the offensiveness because of your immaturity but you are dangerously close to crossing the line.

The point is this. Whomever you criticize must be granted a right-of-reply, published in full. In an unregulated medium like the internet however, the very people whom you criticize do not typically read or participate in it. Therefore, there is no reasonable expectation for your victims to address your accusations here. The internet is thus an unsuitable medium for serious debate.

If you feel strongly about an issue, the right recourse is to write to the relevant ministry, or to the local newspapers, where a fair, two-way public debate can be conducted.

The truth is that the fallacy in your ministerial salary arguments can be easily demonstrated. But I shan't do so here, because it simply is not the correct medium.

Think about it.
Elaine Giam
May 24, 2006   05:25 AM PDT
 
Does the PAP still justify high salaries on the basis of minimising the temptation for corruption? I thought they have dropped that like a hot potato and now talk about attracting talent. A bit like the invasion of Iraq was because of WMD, no actually it was to topple an odious tyrant, and actually it was to spread democracy while we're at it.

The PAP is having difficulty with the concept of ministerial salaries because it is thinking like a bunch of corporate headhunters, but forced to speak in political language.

We have always known that Singapore is run as Singapore Inc, that is, a business. There are only two reasons for our country being run as a democracy: international legitimacy and bothersome colonial tradition/sentimentality.

We need some semblance of a democracy otherwise we would not be able to lure in big business in democratic countries (like America and Europe). The businesses themselves don't care if they're dealing with a despot or not. Witness the commercial activity all over Africa among the Europeans who have fewer qualms than the Americans. But these businesses would be compelled to follow "moral behaviour" by their constituents and therefore governments, who would be pressured by the electorate to place embargoes on amoral companies.

I remember recently watching an interview with Jeff Immelt, CEO of General Electric, and he was almost complaining that democracy in India is inconvenient, cumbersome to deal with as a business, compared to the dictatorial leadership of the Chinese who get things done by decree (or at least with less public fuss).

To some extent also, a semblance of democracy is maintained in Singapore for the benefit of the local population, to prevent mass exodus (but immigration is still happening) and citizens fleeing in exile. We after all need people, Singaporeans and foreigners, to work here.

The PAP runs the country as a business and therefore has to attract talent to that end. Nothing wrong with needing capable people to run the country. Except the traditional definition of politics in most people's minds is less cold and calculating than that. Citizens of a democracy still expect their political leaders to be remunerated less by money and more by public service, fame, power and other non-monetary, intangibles.

What the PAP should do to overcome this struggle between it and the people it governs is to drop the charade of politicians, in the traditional sense. Hire the smart people, like you would in any commercial organisation, staff up the civil/administrative service to the hilt with them, where they have no "emotional" duty to the citizens. Yes, I know they do that now since our civil servants are also among the best paid in the world too.

Then attract politicians to be politicians in the traditional sense of the word, rather than as well paid policy makers who happen to do a little constituency work in the evenings to go through the motions of appearing to serve the people. These real politicians can then be what is now the grassroots people to be the ears on the ground to advise the professional, well paid, unelected policymakers. Occasionally the latter shld still attend Meet the People sessions to have a feel of the real world.

So you can have your nice, warm fuzzy politicians AND also get the smart planners.

But then this wouldn't be democratic right? Bother this sentimental notion the British left us with ...
Rolf
May 24, 2006   05:13 AM PDT
 
The govt says that they have to pay themsleves high salaries to attract new blood.

So are they saying that all those MP's are only in for the $$$ and not for the heart to serve their fellow citizens? No wonder no ruling party MP doing it FULLtime.

So that they can pull in more new candidates into their party and not to the AP? Coz the huge GRC, under the protection of a cabinet minister, can rope in a great number of them without having to contest?
Leopsyche
May 24, 2006   03:56 AM PDT
 
The questions are just too numerous. So another argument goes that high salaries draw more high calibre Singaporeans into politics.

1) Has it been any easier to draw high calibre individuals into politics since high salaries have been implemented?
2) What kind of people have been drawn into Singapore politics because of the high salaries?
3) Who are those people who have chosen to stay out of Singaporean politics even with high salaries on offer?
4) If the rumours of a brain drain in Singapore are true, have high salaries been successful in arresting that development?
5) If the salaries are viewed as a form of compensation, what aspects of Singapore politics require such high monetary incentives to lure participation from capable Singaporeans?

These are just five questions off the top of my head. I am sure many readers can come up with more.
Cynic
May 24, 2006   12:56 AM PDT
 
Well done Gayle. You have managed to put to words eloquently what many Singaporeans have thought for a long time. Related to your argument, I remember reading a newspaper article recently that ranked S'pore to be 3rd in the world in terms of competitiveness. If you go deeper into the article where it actually discussed the factors that affected competitiveness and one of which was how pro-business the government of the respective countries are; the Singapore government is only given a middle ranking. In other words, the report card for our government's contribution to the competitiveness of our country is positive but not at the top of the league. Now this then begs the question of since our ministers are the most well paid in the world, how come they are NOT delivering relative to OTHER government who are paid lesser? The argument that paying our ministers extravagant (note the word extravagant rather than high) salaries deter corruption is an insult to our intelligence for it is like a blank cheque. How much money really is sufficient to deter corruption? How do you come up with the current PM salary? Using the same argument, PM could pay himself $10 million a month and his ministers $8 million because he THINKS that this is sufficient to deter corruption and why stop there?
The practice of MPs double and triple hatting in companies is also dubious and disgraceful. Do not forget that MPs have legislative powers and laws and policies in terms have impact on profit making companies. Can any MP who is a director or CEO with a company sincerely cross his heart and swear that there would NEVER EVER be any conflict of interest and that they would NEVER EVER be tempted to support policies that benefit large corporations (note that all these MPs you pointed out donning corporate hats are in large corporations and not in companies whose factory can comfortably fit into a JTC flat) or block regulations that are detrimental to large companies? Where is the check and balance in this society??
zyn
May 24, 2006   12:37 AM PDT
 
you've probably seen this: http://www.yeocheowtong.com/Salaries.html

don't know how reliable it is, but as an indication/comparison to other countries it says a lot.

since you're talking about the less textbook and more subtle forms of corruption (or, to use a less negatively-connotated phrase, the lack of complete transparency), another issue you might want to consider are the relationships between the leading men/women in the public sector and those in the private sector. not only do they directly overlap in several cases, as you've already noted, but there are also connections between those that hold purely public/private sector posts. perhaps these are merely coincidental, like how the singtel dividend announcement coincided with the day before polling day. or maybe it's something more sinister? aiyah cannot be lah, this is singapore - which other country holds such extensive public awareness campaigns for cleanliness? :)
Sheila
May 24, 2006   12:36 AM PDT
 
Hi Gayle, check this link out- from Straits Times Interactive.

http://web.singnet.com.sg/~hkchital/Notes/Singapore_PM_Justifies_Salary_Hike.htm

It's dated year 2000, but already the PM's pay is close to S$2M then.

JUL 1 2000

Judge my govt by its results, says PM



Increase in the wage bill for Cabinet works out to each Singaporean paying just $11 for good government, he says



By CHUA MUI HOONG


THE price of good government is $34 million a year -- just $11 per Singaporean a year -- or the cost of five plates of char kway teow per citizen.

And the price of bad government?

It could have been $3,166 per Singaporean, said Prime Minister Goh Chok Tong.

If the economy had shrunk by 5 per cent during the economic crisis, It would have knocked $9.5 billion off the gross domestic product (GDP), the sum of goods and services the country produces in a year, he said.

He highlighted the figures yesterday when Parliament wound-up a two-day debate on pay revisions for the public sector.

The five-hour debate yesterday saw Senior Minister Lee Kuan Yew and Deputy PM Lee Hsien Loong both speaking to support PM Goh's defence of the policy paying top dollar for government talent. On Thursday pay rises averaging 13 per cent for the civil service were announced, as well as changes to the way senior government workers were rewarded. PM Goh made an impassioned appeal for Singaporeans to judge the Government by the results it had delivered.

""I have led this government for 10 years now,'' he said.

""Has the performance of my Government justified its wage?

""Look at it from the viewpoint of results...has my government given you "safe homes, stable jobs and fuel to dream of all the tomorrows?', as a member of the public put it?''

He argued that this year's $34 million Cabinet and political office-holder wage bill gave Singapore a capable, government -- rated as one of the best by international agencies from the Swiss-based World Economic Forum to the Hongkong-based Political and Economic Risk Consultancy.

Singapore's legal system, health and education systems also rate well in international comparisons.

During the financial crisis, the economy grew by 0.4 per cent when South Korea's shrank by 6.7 per cent, Thailand's by 10.2 per cent, Malaysia's by 7.4 per cent, and Indonesia's by 13 per cent.

The difference, he said, is the quality of political leadership.

""Let me put it simply. The damage we had prevented to the economy from the Asian financial crisis is more than enough to pay the ministers and the other political office-holders for the rest of their political lives and in fact over many lifetimes,'' he said.

SM Lee said that in his time as Prime Minister, per capita GDP rose from $1,300 in 1959 to $22,000 in 1990 -- about 16 times.

And in the 10 years since PM Goh took over, it had risen to $37,000.

Deputy Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong, responding to concerns expressed by 28 MPs, gave an assurance that top public sector pay met rigorous selection and performance standards.

The Government will not tolerate ""free riders'', he said.

""We must have good government, because without good government, you can have very hardworking people, you can have very talented people but you're going to have a lot of hardship and suffering,'' he said.

PM Goh said the $6 million increase in the wage bill for the Cabinet -- from $28 million -- was small compared to the benefit good government could produce.

If it improved GDP by just by 1 per cent, it was worth was $1.4 billion to Singapore.

The changes announced on Thursday included a new formula which pegs ministerial pay to two-thirds the median income of the top eight earners of the six professions -- that is, the pay of the individual at the mid-point of that list.

So, the Prime Minister will earn $1.94 million this year, and the most junior minister, $968,000 this year.

PM Goh said he had gone through the proposed revisions thoroughly.

""I am satisfied that they are fair. I do not think they are generous, given the ministers' huge responsibilities and impact on our people's lives,'' he said.

""I want the right people to do these jobs. So should you.''

He urged Singaporeans to be rational when assessing the issue, and to judge the Government by its results.

An ill-paid government cannot deliver the economic goods.

""And when a country goes down, it is not the able people who will suffer most. It is the man-in-the-street,'' he said.

""They are the people who cannot migrate easily. They are the ones who need a good government most.''

Parliament sits again on Monday.

Copyright © 2000 Singapore Press Holdings Ltd. All rights reserved.
gayle
May 24, 2006   12:26 AM PDT
 
Perhaps "I was paid a high salary so I wouldn't be corrupt" should be a line in TT Durai's defence.
RLSL
May 24, 2006   12:15 AM PDT
 
What can be worse the corruption? Legalized corruption!
Only one nation master that, they are all "Above Board"
1.) They are the elected government (Lets put aside media manipulation and unfair electoral practices)
2.) The necessary law is pass(Lets put aside years of repression on opposition so no significant check and balance exist for 40 odd years)
3.) Finance Minister approved the budget (Lets put aside bad corporate governance practice like filling top financial post and lucrative state own corporation with own family members)

Before the fall of NKF, Durai is hail as the wizard of fund raising to the extend of almost exporting his talent to other charity organizations. Everything is above board.

Now NKF want to file a civil suit to recover millions from him, this is an interesting legal precedent, we may need to refer to it in the future, who knows.
gayle
May 23, 2006   11:11 PM PDT
 
My dad just brought to my attention that SGD has risen in comparison to USD, so in USD it's even more than 1.1 mill, I updated the figures accordingly. I'd be much appreciated if someone can corrobate the figures with me with other sources, as I got the figures from ThinkCentre which is obviously pro-opposition, and the article is a few years updated. So I'm nervous about the numbers :)
NameConcerned
May 23, 2006   11:02 PM PDT
 
If the US$1.1 million salary of the PM is correct then he is paid more than the combined salaries of Bush, Hu Jintao and Putin and you can safely add in the salaries of the Indon president and Msian PM. If he is not grotesquely overpaid then I dont now who is !
gayle
May 23, 2006   10:54 PM PDT
 
Rob: That's one possibility. A friend told me today that Low Thia Khiang had also suggested pegging a minister's pay to the average income of lower income groups, via a multiplying variable of say, 100. So if it's $800 monthly, minister's pay will be $80 000. I still think that's too high, but the principle can be the same lah, and according to Low that will give ministers incentive to raise the average income of lower income groups. Makes sense in a way :)
Astro boy
May 23, 2006   10:53 PM PDT
 
It takes a dollar to corrupt a poor man.

It takes more dollars to corrupt a rich man.
Rob
May 23, 2006   10:38 PM PDT
 
I think there is no way we can make all the ministers quit their full time jobs to fulfill their ministerial roles. But things might change if these ministers are not entitled to an allowance if they are earning above a certain income. This would probably stop anyone who are running for elections just for the money.
Anonymous
May 23, 2006   10:30 PM PDT
 
Salary:

A better way to compare salary may be by per capita.

According to the CIA Fact file:

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html

The USA has a popn of 298 mn while S'pore has popn of 4.49 mn.

Based on your figures of usd 200k (more like 400k) for USA president, the cost per citizen a year is usd 0.00067 cts to pay the president.

The cost per citizen for the salary of PM of S'pore is usd 0.25 cts a year.

On a per capita basis, then, singaporeans can expect their PM to deliver results that are 400 times better than their american counterparts.

On an individual basis, I should be 400 times better off than my american counterpart.

Is this the case ?





 

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