Something is rotten in the state of Denmark. -- Hamlet [I, iv, 90]
I was taking a taxi home today from training with a teammate, and the taxi driver was supposed to take a left turn off the highway to drop her off at her place, before continuing on to mine. As we approached the appropriate turn, my friend noticed he was about to miss it. "Uncle, can turn left please?" she called out -- but by then it was too late, and he had missed the turn. He cried out an apology, swore softly ("God!") and had to take a long detour to make it back to her flat.
Later on, after she had gotten down from the taxi, he apologized once more to me.
"Sorry ah, I was thinking about the Worker's Party."
"Worker's Party?"
"Ya, I live in Aljunied. Worker's Party, nearly lah."
(laughing) "Oh, yeah, 56 to 44%. So you support opposition is it?"
"Ya. Actually last time, Braddell Heights, then Marine Parade, then Aljunied. Braddell Heights 48-52% you know! Very close."
"Yeah, I'm sure things will be better next election. I think Aljunied will get it. So uncle, why you support opposition?"
"Oh many reasons. I think the government does not care enough lah. You are student right? Or working?"
"I'm a student."
"You all student, I'm sure you work very hard. My son and daughter, also work very hard. Work so hard, graduate? No job. My son degree in electronics engineering, now no choice, become what? Teacher. Government don't care. Never create job, then never provide. And you know, government no family values."
"Yeah, did you hear about the retirement villages?"
"Retirement villages? What?"
"You know, Khaw Boon Wan announced that because it's cheaper to buy land in Johore, Bintam and Batam, they will send our elderly there instead, cos here it's too expensive."
"Ahhh, you see? No family values! Who will take care of them there? Nowadays, divorce rates going higher and higher. Government, only think about profit. Money, money, money. Never think about its people."
Even as I continued to make small talk with him, my mind was making connections with what I'd heard only this morning, when Permanent Secretary of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Mr. Bilahari Kausikan, visited my school for an N.E dialogue. He made an opening address which, though short, was concise and illuminating of typical Singaporean foreign policy, which is essentially as follows: what's this thing called humanity? There's no such thing as friendship in politics, there's only a convergence of interests. The world wouldn't be any different without Singapore in it, so we must strive to make ourselves extraordinary.
This was alright in and of itself, but that mentality started to come across more and more strongly as questions were asked. One student stood up during the question and answer session and asked about the impact of outsourcing on our local population. Though that wasn't an entirely relevant question to pose a man from the MFA, he had no qualms with answering it as follows:
"We have to be realistic. There is a limit to how much re-training we can do for some workers, so we have to look overseas. Look at my generation, more than half of them didn't even complete primary school education. What are we going to do? They are not going to conveniently die off..."
At this point, I was so flabbergasted I stopped listening to the rest of his answer. Perhaps he didn't think he had to watch his words very closely, as he was only speaking to a bunch of teachers and students. I don't even think many of them caught what he said. But his callous attitude was so typical of the government's seeming attitude towards the 'chaff' of our society. The fact that older workers stubbornly remaining alive had little to do with whether or not we should be protecting domestic jobs for our own workers (like that taxi driver's son, an engineer) didn't seem to concern him. He just took his time wending down the garden path of why we should outsource jobs, and the fact that we had an aging population was just a by-the-way manner of illustrating his point.
The same attitude, though more subtly manifested, was present throughout the rest of the dialogue session as well. When asked about what ASEAN planned to do about Burma's recalcitrance to international authority with regards to its human rights situation, he said: "There's nothing we can do. Regime change is useless, and economic sanctions won't work." A student stood up, and said --
"Does that mean if thousands of people are being slaughtered in Burma, we won't do a thing because it's not in our self interest?"
"Yep."
"But if everyone thinks that way, nothing will be done."
"You're right, and most of the time nothing is done."
I proceeded to question him thus --
"You say that regime change is futile with regards to Burma, and economic sanctions don't work. Yet it is interesting that these very same punitive measures were applied to Iraq, and that Singapore had no qualms whatsoever in being a part of the coalition of the willing that showed support for the US invasion of Iraq in March 2003. I have three questions, then: 1) Does that mean that though we supported the Iraq invasion, it has been a futile endeavour? 2) Did we make ourselves more of a target by announcing our support for the invasion, considering we are surrounded by countries with dominantly Muslim populations? 3) Did our willingness to be a part of the coalition have anything to do with the signing of the landmark Free Trade Agreement signed between Singapore and the USA soon after the Iraq invasion?"
To which he replied,
"The Americans were deluded, it doesn't mean we supported them because we thought it would work. I believe the question you are too polite to ask is, did we suck up to the U.S? Well, yes, our basic interest was to show support for the USA, you are right. But what did we really commit to it? How much of our assets did we lend to Iraq? We put one plane in the air and one ship in the sea. And were we more of a target because of it? To which I reply...we were already a target before the invasion."
Okay, freeze-frame a moment here. I believe this man was being extremely loose with his words because, again, he was talking to a bunch of kids (900 or so of them). Hence his carelessness with language. But I appreciated this hour and a half of candour because it gave me a lot of insight, personally into how Singapore operates like: a cold and calm automaton of self-interest. We don't care about whether or not the Kurds and the Shi'ites are being helped by regime change -- we don't want to implicate ourselves too badly by, God forbid, actually committing troops or doing something more than 'one plane in the air and one ship in the sea'. And we were willing to do something that made us more of a target, knowing full well we were already a target of hostilities to our dear neighbours Malaysia, Indonesia, etc., so we could profit from a FTA. There is no interest in common humanity here, there is only a cool-headed weightage of pros and cons.
This is, of course, an entirely attractive idea. Look out for your own selves and you shan't have to bother about the person next to you unless it is expedient for you to do so. A student asked him why we were unwilling to help to build the bridge between Malaysia and Singapore as a gesture of goodwill between neighbours, and he said:
"You want to build a bridge? Sure. But make it worth my while."
This mentality of self-interest -- which, let's call a spade a spade, is really selfishness -- sounds well and good until we begin to consider a few things. Firstly, I'm quite concerned that Singapore's selfish tendencies may just come round to bite us in the behind at some point. Our reluctance to do anything about Burma means that ASEAN is weakened from within, and our reputation as a region tarnished overseas. Our small-mindedness about the matter of goodwill and ties between Malaysia is not only downright obnoxious, but spells out ill omens for diplomatic and trading ties between the nations in the future. And let's not even talk about what will happen when the water agreement expires. With regards to Iraq? Our insensitivity to our neighbours' needs and our willingness to 'suck up to the US', which he essentially conceded, is hardly going to endear ourselves to Islamic radicals in the region. Gee, I wonder which secular, Westernized, urban, capitalist, soulless, amoral, small, vulnerable, nation-state in Southeast Asia we shall bomb today, Azari Husin?
More than that though, our selfishness in our foreign policy is an outward reflection of an inward ugliness, which is to be coldly calculative of our interests and to be perfectly willing to sacrifice human welfare in the process, if we deem it a fitting sacrifice. The taxi driver's lament of "money, money, money" is precisely what Kausikan is articulating more verbosely with his "international relations is governed by no other obligation than a convergence of interests". When I say that it is our basic and fundamental moral obligation to people other than ourselves, and I use that to justify needing to temper our foreign policy with some measure of goodwill and genuine concern for the people of Burma and Iraq, others cry 'idealist'! But do these same people realize that unless we affirm this fundamental duty to someone else, a capitalist society like Singapore will always and forever place the interests of the rich above that of the poor, and tolerate, even condone the suffering of some in order to further the interests of others?
Look at this extract from an article by Asiaweek magazine, here:
"What happened to Singapore, the land of plenty? In its rush to forge a manufacturing, then a high-tech economy, the city-state rarely bothered to look back at those who were lagging. Senior Minister Lee Kuan Yew developed a system based on hard work and government support for industry. Singaporeans were expected to earn their rewards. The results were astounding: a middle class emerged to build Asia's second-richest country. But with the advent of globalization and an influx of cheap foreign workers, Singapore's economy is becoming increasingly ruthless. According to its own statistics, the nation's rich are getting richer and the poor are falling further behind. To most Singaporeans, the mere existence of poor folk in need of care packages comes as a shock. And this realization has prompted an uncharacteristic bout of soul-searching. The rich-poor disparity strikes right at the heart of Singapore's development model - and challenges the city's smug self-image."
Though the article is dated 2000, nothing much has truly changed since then. In fact, our idea of finding solutions for the old and the poor are to a) buy them off with quick injections of cash via the Progress Package at election time, which has virtually no long-term implications for a sustained increase in national income due to the fact that the multiplier effect for government spending is minimal as we have a highly open economy with many withdrawals, and b) ship them off to Johore, Bintam and Batam. Oh yes, and let us not forget c) the raising of the minimum retiring age, so that more old people can sell tissue paper and clean toilets.
The truth is that Singapore should not, any longer, be willing to countenance the compromising of human welfare in order to feed its own selfish interests, which revolve around the rich and the middle classes. What about those who have been retrenched, who have worked hard but are unable to find jobs -- what about the elderly and the disabled? Our citizens are not units to be judged and weighed according to the marginal revenue each one brings to our coffers. This is a mentality which we have to accept in our domestic policies, but one we seem to be currently deadset against. Our foreign policy is a reflection of how we treat our own people: with expedience. Baldfaced, unashamed, expedience.
I appreciate and commend Mr. Bilahari Kausikan for a candid and open discussion, which generally had no holds barred (except when I asked him about Temasek Holding's takeover bid for ShinCorp and how that had had negative bearings on our bilateral ties with Thailand, to which he promptly and categorically denied any government association with the deal and insisted that the MFA was not consulted, 'nor did it want to be consulted'). But honestly, I'm creeped out by the fact that our government is probably populated with people who think just like him. And the general feedback I received from everyone was this: "He was good, but boy, I wouldn't want to be his friend." That's Singapore. Good at what it does, extremely efficient, no doubt, but boy, I'm embarrassed to be a Singaporean sometimes. We're not making very many friends, and neither are we, to be honest, being good friends to the very people in our midst who need our friendship and our helping hand the most. Who says beauty is on the inside? The ugliness within is the same ugliness without -- only, I think, with far more devastating consequences for our people.
Flabbergasted January 9, 2007 07:39 PM PST Very good blog with such lucid thoughts and excellent post.
All the tooing and froing that I have been reading if we are still debating this matter reflects one's paradigm and assumptions of human characater and nature.
Han has this basic belief that human being are basically rational and able to make intelligent farsighted decisions that will ultimately be good for himself first and others second in the long term. Whereas Gayle belief that a higher moral authourity be it a government or higher power like God is needed to set the moral tone if not lay down the moral law to govern the ruler and the 'rulee'(corny I know).
It is my belief that emprically the communist system would have work beautifully had Han paradigm and assumptions about human nature is an accurate reflections of reality.
Sadly for all of us we as human beings, need rules, law and the threat of punishment in the present and the future to behave intelligentlly(rationally) and in non self destructive manner even for our own self interest in a farsighted manner be it as government, companies or individuals.
My two cents worth.
FARZANA YASMIN September 14, 2006 04:39 PM PDT Sir,
With due respect, I submit few lines for your kind consideration .I have come know through reliable sources and press media that you are devoted service for the well being of human right.
Incidentally I may submit that I have a large poor family. Therefore there is no financial support for me. Please financial help me, I will not only be a great relief to a poor family but also be a great act of charity on your honor part .I am waiting your favorable reply.
I request you please god sake help me for purpose of this letter and not disappoint me.
With best regards.
Yours faithfully
MISS farzana yasminC/O khurshid Alam
E-158/A Satellite town
Rawalpindi (Pakistan)
E-mail HARRISALAM333@HOTMAIL.COM
Note: THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO PROMISED FOR HELP BUT WHEN REQUESTED THEY GIVE NO RESPONSE NIL.
V August 28, 2006 01:07 PM PDT Commentary By: Mellanie Hewlitt
Source: Singapore Review
Date: 2 May 2003.
In what appeared to be an initial move to reduce severely inflated
salaries, to more reasonable industry standards, Singapore's Ruling Elite
have bowed to public pressure and hinted at accepting a pay cut.
Or have they?
What exactly does "Leading By Example" mean? Lets try to put some substance
behind those brave words. As of last count, average take home pay of a
Singapore minister was well in excess of SGD100,000/- a month.
The below table puts things back in proper perspective:
(these are basic figures as of July 2000 and did not include last year's
pay hikes or other benefits. Otherwise the updated numbers may well be
much larger)
1. Singapore
Prime Minister's Basic Salary US$1,100,000 (SGD1,958,000) a year
Minister's Basic: US$655,530 to US$819,124 (SGD1,166,844 to
SGD1,458,040) a year
2. United States of America
President: US$200,000
Vice President: US$181,400
Cabinet Secretaries: US$157,000
3. United Kingdom
Prime Minister: US$170,556
Ministers: US$146,299
Senior Civil Servants: US$262,438
4. Australia
Prime Minister: US$137,060
Deputy Prime Minister: US$111,439
Treasurer: US$102,682
5. Hong Kong
Chief Executive : US$416,615
Top Civil Servant: US$278,538
Financial Sec: US$315,077
Source: Asian Wall Street Journal July 10 2000
In relative terms, less then 20% of Singaporeans here have take home
salaries exceeding SGD100,000/- A YEAR.
In stark contrast, BASIC SALARY FOR A MINISTER STARTS AT
SGD1,166,844 A YEAR, OR JUST UNDER SGD100,000 A MONTH.
What these ministers earns in just ONE MONTH exceeds the ANNUAL TAKE HOME
salary of 80% of Singapore's income earning population. Lets not even begin
to compare annual packages which will exceed SGD1 million easily.
Several facts are noteworthy here;
a) That the ministerial salaries are grossly out of proportion, even when
compared with their counterparts in much larger countries (US and UK) who
have far heavier responsibilities.
b) That these salary reductions were long overdue. In the past, such handsome
remuneration were "justified" on the back of resounding performance. However,
Singapore's economy has been in the doldrums of a recession for several years
now (with beginnings reaching as far back as the 1997 Asian economic crisis).
This economic barometer is a rough measure of performance and implies that
ministerial salaries were due for review at least 3-4 years ago.
c) That adjustments should be made to bring them back within the industry
benchmarks. Taking the salary of US vice president as a rule of thumb, the
percentage for reductions should start at 50% of current pay.
With such inflated figures, it is understandable why the local government
controlled media (Singapore Press Holdings) have taken pains to exclude
mention of actual numbers for the world to see. The numbers would be too
glaring and no amount of window dressing or creative writing could have
reconciled these numbers with a sane figure and restored credibility.
It is unlikely that Singapore's Ruling Elite will accept such huge salary
cuts.
Said a long time forumer from an internet political chat group:
"First of all the Ministers are NOT leading on pay cut. Workers' salaries
have been drastically reduced since the beginning of the recession while
thousands have been unemployed. so the Ministers are NOT LEADING. they are
only CATCHING UP. And they have several decades to catch up on."
"Secondly, how much of a pay cut will Ministers take? 10%? 20%? unless its
a cut that will affect their lifestyles, it is merely symbolic and they would
still not know what it feels like to be a normal worker. as such, this is not
Leading by Example. Its just another bogus political propaganda stunt"
A 29 yr old executive who requested to remain anonymous admitted
sheepishly ;
"The salaries are a national embarrassment
because it reflects the underlying materialistic value systems of Singapore
Ministers. No matter how you look at it, the fact remains that our ministers
are money faced, and these are supposed to be Singapore's leaders, with value
systems that Singaporeans should follow."
"The ministerial salaries puts Singapore in a bad light in the eyes of
the world. And the process for review and approval of the ministerial
salaries is also a joke. Imagine sitting on the board and approving (on White
Paper)your own salary increments! Its all a wayang show".
This also raises the question as to the authenticity of the actual process
for review and approval of cabinet minister's salaries. Who decides on these
numbers? Is there independence and transparency?
Veteran opposition figure J.B. Jeyaretnam on Wednesday, Nov 20, 2002 challenged
Singapore government ministers to take a pay cut to show they understand the
economic hardships faced by the public. And the over-riding concern is that
Singapore's Ruling Elite are unable to appreciate the economic hardship that
the masses face in these tough times.
The growing public resentment comes afew months after PM Goh's careless
comments that "lay-offs were notall bad", drew a backlash from the public with
a flood of e-mails being sent to the foreign press to register public
indignation.
Brandon May 25, 2006 03:23 PM PDT Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.
Martin Luther King Jr.
I hope you keep up the good work, Singapore needs more people willing to put in their two cents worth about issues. But realise that not all strata of our society can reach the level of intellectual discourse which you envision, and temper your idealism with realism. We can change the world only when we know how it works and what changes would be most possible.
john riemann soong May 25, 2006 07:44 AM PDT Bryan: I assume you are being socratically ironic, because people were genuinely wanting to help. Most of the aid were from private charities, not from a government that wanted to raise its international ties. And guess what? Aceh now has a peace accord with the Indonesian government.
Perhaps for a large nation the donations weren't as flowing as one might expect from a rich nation of 300 million, but what do you expect? It went into the billions in aid, as I recall...
I'm actually not a fan of United States culture and atmosphere in myself, except for some of its philosophers (Jefferson, etc.) but I believe in giving credit where credit is due.
So I honestly hope that was just being ironic. ;-)
bryan May 22, 2006 11:36 AM PDT I remember the 2004 Tsunami.
Singapore was very quick and eagar with trying to help Indonesia, which makes me wonder why. Was it because she was geniunely helpful? Or was it done to boost Singpapore's international standing? Or were there other motives?
If it had been another country further away or not so related to Singapore, would she care?
The US too, were quick and eager to help. If I remember correctly, one of their top people flew on a helicopter to survey the damage. As we all know, the majority of Muslims generally have a dislike of the US, because of its policies on Irag and so forth. My point is, they cared more about themselves, their international standing, than about whether the whole of Aceh had gone down into the oceans when they offered their help.
Gary May 22, 2006 11:35 AM PDT Hi,
Got to read your blog only today.
Read most of your writing, but not the many many responses.
IMO, the govt's problem is that having achieved - with the cooperation, help and sacrifices of Singaporeans - its current status of a well-to-do Asian country, second only to Japan, it has become very very ham-fisted with regards to its social and welfare policies towards Singaporeans, esp. those in their twilight years, many of whom would have contributed in one way or another, to the nation's wealth. Yet, they have been forgotten.
There might well be valid reasons for Singapore's way of managing relationship with other countries, but surely there must be rights and privileges to being a citizen of a nation one has helped to build? Right now, the poor, the aged, the sick and the disabled are handed out mere pittance in terms of public assistance which is ironically often funded by other members of the public! The favourite cliche of the govt's response to requests for help from the people has always been to trot out the spectre of what will become of Singapore if it becomes a welfare state, when on a scale of 10, the sort of state welfarism currently enjoyed by Singaporeans is probably like only 3. Two very apt words accurately describe this govt's involvement in helping the needy of this country: It is MISERLY and a SCROOGE.
Gary May 22, 2006 11:35 AM PDT Hi,
Got to read your blog only today.
Read most of your writing, but not the many many responses.
IMO, the govt's problem is that having achieved - with the cooperation, help and sacrifices of Singaporeans - its current status of a well-to-do Asian country, second only to Japan, it has become very very ham-fisted with regards to its social and welfare policies towards Singaporeans, esp. those in their twilight years, many of whom would have contributed in one way or another, to the nation's wealth. Yet, they have been forgotten.
There might well be valid reasons for Singapore's way of managing relationship with other countries, but surely there must be rights and privileges to being a citizen of a nation one has helped to build? Right now, the poor, the aged, the sick and the disabled are handed out mere pittance in terms of public assistance which is ironically often funded by other members of the public! The favourite cliche of the govt's response to requests for help from the people has always been to trot out the spectre of what will become of Singapore if it becomes a welfare state, when on a scale of 10, the sort of state welfarism currently enjoyed by Singaporeans is probably like only 3. Two very apt words accurately describe this govt's involvement in helping the needy of this country: It is MISERLY and a SCROOGE.
Gary May 22, 2006 11:35 AM PDT Hi,
Got to read your blog only today.
Read most of your writing, but not the many many responses.
IMO, the govt's problem is that having achieved - with the cooperation, help and sacrifices of Singaporeans - its current status of a well-to-do Asian country, second only to Japan, it has become very very ham-fisted with regards to its social and welfare policies towards Singaporeans, esp. those in their twilight years, many of whom would have contributed in one way or another, to the nation's wealth. Yet, they have been forgotten.
There might well be valid reasons for Singapore's way of managing relationship with other countries, but surely there must be rights and privileges to being a citizen of a nation one has helped to build? Right now, the poor, the aged, the sick and the disabled are handed out mere pittance in terms of public assistance which is ironically often funded by other members of the public! The favourite cliche of the govt's response to requests for help from the people has always been to trot out the spectre of what will become of Singapore if it becomes a welfare state, when on a scale of 10, the sort of state welfarism currently enjoyed by Singaporeans is probably like only 3. Two very apt words accurately describe this govt's involvement in helping the needy of this country: It is MISERLY and a SCROOGE.
Gary May 22, 2006 11:30 AM PDT Hi,
Got to read your blog only today.
Read most of your writing, but not the many many responses.
IMO, the govt's problem is that having achieved - with the cooperation, help and sacrifices of Singaporeans - its current status of a well-to-do Asian country, second only to Japan, it has become very very ham-fisted with regards to its social and welfare policies towards Singaporeans, esp. those in their twilight years, many of whom would have contributed in one way or another, to the nation's wealth. Yet, they have been forgotten.
There might well be valid reasons for Singapore's way of managing relationship with other countries, but surely there must be rights and privileges to being a citizen of a nation one has help to built? Right now, the poor, the aged, the sick and the disabled are handed out mere pittance in terms of public assistance which is ironically often funded by other members of the public! The favourite cliche of the govt's response to requests for help from the people has always been to trot out the spectre of what will become of Singapore if it becomes a welfare state, when on a scale of 10, the sort of state welfarism currently enjoyed by Singaporeans is probably like only 3. Two very apt words accurately describe this govt's involvement in helping the needy of this country: It is MISERLY and a SCROOGE.
Name ANGELINA May 22, 2006 12:32 AM PDT Brilliant thots, Gayle. I see BRIGHT in your future. And when you get there, don't forget to still keep your soul beautiful!
Hang in there....keep going.
I am already your fan! :)
Name ANGELINA May 22, 2006 12:30 AM PDT Brilliant thots, Gayle. I see BRIGHT in your future. And when you get there, don't forget to still keep your soul beautiful!
Hang in there....keep going.
I am already your fan! :)
thefarside May 22, 2006 12:16 AM PDT The Singapore government today and how the country is run is a reflection of its most dominant founding father.
Through an extraordinary combination of good fortune, favourable circumstances and great preserverance he scaled the enormous montain of obstacle and placed Singapore to where it stands today.
It is therefore understandable, that to protect this legacy and to continue the unfinished work, he wants nothing but intelligent, hard-headed and realistic people who can continue to drive the nation forward.
And so you have ruthless efficiency being prized above all else.
And is this wrong? Most of the most powerful and successful business entities in the world practice this as well, and their shareholders reward them handsomely for that.
And for Singapore, could there be another route? In 1969, LKY, GKS and Raja found themselves homeless, broke, with no resources and 2 million hungry mouths to feed. On hindsight, a "critical examination" of past policies may be very educationally and emotionally inspiring, but hardly consequential.
However, it is good that the nation is developing a critical mass of people for whom hard sell won't work anymore. One day, perhaps things will change, and maybe you can play a part in making that change.
How? I don't know. You are sitting in front of the computer now posting with all the energy and fire that you can muster. Will it amount to anything?
Perhaps twenty years later, you can ask yourself that question again. I certainly hope by then, you would have tried to make a difference.
Name May 21, 2006 10:17 PM PDT let me jump on the bandwagon and be one of the millions who, having read the reports in the ST, read this post of yours (though perhaps this comment has come so late that it would go un-notice).
i think that PS MFA showed you the ugly truth of the world. that people are selfish. that all life is selfish. that all lifeforms would do anything to ensure the survival of itself and/or its species.
humanity is no exception. no civilisation, no country would do something where it does not expect to benefit from, in one way or another, on one level or another.
the issue is, what is the best way to be selfish? on the most simplistic level, in the most myopic sense, you just weigh the immediate cost and benefit. helping Aung Sung Suu Kyi doesn't help us immediately and hence is not worth the effort. sucking up to the US wrt Iraq does. so we suck up and leave Aung Sung Suu Kyi to die.
or we can weigh things out as you have, and perhaps not suck up to US that much and fight for democratic reforms in Burma. does this make us any less selfish, any more altruistic, any holier? no. it's just how far ahead in time you are willing/able to wait to cash in your favours. it just depends on how deep you are willing to dig.
there is nothing wrong with being selfish. by and large, the dictum that Adam Smith left us still holds. but again, that is only at a fairly simplistic superficial level. the next level would be to understand that very often, the most good for the individual is served when one reconciles it to the greater good (a la John Nash). examples would include curbing excessive fishing, dealing with pollution problems, etc etc.
at the end of the day, the principle of selfishness of individuals, of nations, of species is not flawed. what is flawed is the way it is carried out due to poor and simplistic analysis.
Evan May 21, 2006 02:24 PM PDT i agree with your perceptions. I wasn't there in person to hear Kausikan speak, but I would have had the same reactions as you did. He came across as being cold and calculating. At least I applaud admire him for being so candid. I hope not everyone at our Foreign Ministry is like that, certainly Tommy Koh wasn't like this when he was ambassador for our country. I have friends from indonesia, malaysia and thailand - a significant portion of them (who know me well) will grudgingly admit their admiration for our success, but at the same time see us an "economic dictatorship" behaving like a leech on the region. We are a minor power (based on population size in Asean) but punch above our weight due to our economic power and military might.
I shudder to thnk Kausikan believes deploying our soldiers to the Iraq is price to be paid to the Bush Administration for benefits. Bush will be gone in 3 years, do we suck up to his successor who may have totally different ideas about he world? What if our soldiers were to come under harm and lives were lost? Are their lives dispensable? While I don't think diplomats should be humanitarians like the Dalai Lama or Nelson Mandela, I wish he and others in the For. ministry have more conscience and scrupples, or else we'll find that we don't really have any friends next time we're in dire consequences.
I know that truth is always in between the 2 extremes. I do not think ASEAN is doing enough about challenging the military junta to democratise Myannmar. Complicating the picture is our aconomic and military interest in Myannmar. Of course, they could argue if we don't seize those opportunities to do business with Myannmar, the chinese or someone else could peddle their influence more with Yangon. however, I believe at some point a country has to have some scrupples and stick to it.
I've enjoyed your writing. Good luck to your future endeavors!
William May 18, 2006 04:08 PM PDT Gayle.
In 5 years when you are of voting age....suggest you consider joining Workers party, stand as a candidate, albeit the youngest one and make a difference.
Singapore needs a counterweight to the PAP, a party that has changed itself so much that it is no longer the same one that came into being in 1954. I see our civil servants, be they from the MFA, MOM, MHA, MOE, etc as just fellow Singaporeans forced to be shaped in PAP's mould. Don't blame them. They need to make a living. Rather, change their political leaders and their mindset by participating in politics.
Politics determines who get what, when, and how.
gayle May 17, 2006 11:58 PM PDT Ramli: I don't have an endlessly negative perception on the government's policies. On the contrary, I think they've done an extraordinarily good job. But there are always areas for improvement and that's what I'm interested in looking at, because we're all in this nation together :) and proud to be, no?
Ramli May 17, 2006 09:30 PM PDT I seriously believe that you're wrong in your "endless negative perceptions on Singapore's policies!
Gayle,look at the bright side!
Cail May 17, 2006 03:51 PM PDT Gayle, thanks for the insightful article. I am fully agree with you a nation must have some heart with it to start with.
Go by the logic mentioned by the MFA guy, if one day singapore is in imminent danger, should the citizen living abroad come back to fight for singapore since they have not much to lose?
My bottomline is the govt have to show some heart first in order for the citizens to reciprocal.
Name:fuzhang May 17, 2006 01:17 PM PDT Hi Gayle,
I have been impressed with your incisive comments and keen observations, re the MFA Q and A incident.
Coming from someone so young says a lot about your interest in your country's well-being and the pains you have taken in keeping abreast of political developments here and abroad.
I hope more youths here are like you, though, honestly, this is a dim hope.
Yes, the sight of the elderly standing for hours on end at some cormer of the street selling tissue paper always tugs at my heart-strings.
They, but for the grace of God, could have been my grandparents. If they were, I would not have allowed them to do this and would try my darndest, with help from my siblings, to spare them this tiring and lamentable way of keeping body and soul together.
It says something about our young too, doesn't it? What has happened to filial piety? Or could it be that perhaps, their kids are so poor, they can't help? Or that these seniors are so independent and proud (in the positive sense of the word) that they prefer to help themselves, instead of being reliant?
Keep up your good work. Singapore needs more involved citizens like you.
Name:fuzhang May 17, 2006 01:16 PM PDT Hi Gayle,
I have been impressed with your incisive comments and keen observations, re the MFA Q and A incident.
Coming from someone so young says a lot about your interest in your country's well-being and the pains you have taken in keeping abreast of political developments here and abroad.
I hope more youths here are like you, though, honestly, this is a dim hope.
Yes, the sight of the elderly standing for hours on end at some cormer of the street selling tissue paper always tugs at my heart-strings.
They, but for the grace of God, could have been my grandparents. If they were, I would not have allowed them to do this and would try my darndest, with help from my siblings, to spare them this tiring and lamentable way of keeping body and soul together.
It says something about our young too, doesn't it? What has happened to filial piety? Or could it be that perhaps, their kids are so poor, they can't help? Or that these seniors are so independent and proud (in the positive sense of the word) that they prefer to help themselves, instead of being reliant?
Keep up your good work. Singapore needs more involved citizens like you.
JC1979 May 17, 2006 01:04 AM PDT Good analysis of our so called 'elite' officials!Keep it up!
gayle May 17, 2006 12:49 AM PDT Oh dear. I also just read your blog, Han, and am disconcerted to discover that I am a leftie with a 'strain of lunacy' because I believe in child labour regulations and pension schemes for old people :(
:P May 16, 2006 10:14 PM PDT speaking of christianity and conversion. well, it has favouritisms too, where core messages had been wrongly brought forth when christianity arrived in china once more during the 7th and 8th century of the CE. it's not as bright, even now, christianity is still facing the threat of gnostics and false prophets, and it matters more on whether the people hear what they want to hear.
gayle May 16, 2006 09:52 PM PDT Han: Ok, let's close the case ;) and leave my stand at this: A non-interventionist government, agreed, that respects the right to free choice that people have, but one that must act when the will of the more powerful threatens the welfare of others. And that action must be undertaken judiciously and with great deliberation as to the 'before', 'during' and 'after' of its policies.
That's all. And yes you are tormenting me a bit - but don't let that stop you from hanging around ;)
Han May 16, 2006 08:29 PM PDT lol ok lah, I feel like I'm tormenting you like that. Won't bug you about this.
Basically the main point I wanted to make was that if you don't force people to convert because you value their voluntary submission to Christ (it is the fact that it is voluntary that there is value), then surely you cannot believe that free will is illusory?
Secondly, your application of 'people don't know what's good for themselves' is inconsistent when it comes to religion, because you can decide to override people's own choices when it comes to things you don't like, but not when it comes to others like religion? And keep in mind, there ARE those who would like to impose religion upon others by force.
Which brings me to my last point. The application of 'people don't know what's good for themselves' is definitely prone to abuse by slippery slope. It starts out with small little things. Then comes decisions which controls your property and money (e.g. HDB and CPF). And then finally, it will extend to over your personal beliefs and individual liberties (e.g. ISD used against Catholics in the 70s, censorship of non-official viewpoints in the media, Chia Thye Poh holidaying in Sentosa for 30 years).
I hope you understand, my position is that such dangers are real, because they have happened before, and will again. The only safeguard is vigilance by the people against the subversion of individual free will by the state.
gayle May 16, 2006 05:53 PM PDT Han, are you a Christian? Do you know and care about what our faith is about? Have you experienced it?
Even in Christian states, conversion is not forced. That should tell you something about the spiritual nature of our religion which is not bound by states.
The early Christians, in the time of the apostle Paul, spread the Gospel while under great persecution. Almost all of Jesus's disciples were martyred. Today, some of the greatest revivals are occurring in places like China, where religion is reviled.
As to why I feel labour is inelastic with regards to children, it's simple. Even with safe machinery and shorter working hours, they're still cheaper.
Regarding the GD, I know govt intervention was executed badly, but my point is that one of the major reasons why it happened in the first place was because of completely laissez-faire capitalism.
why would you not support such legislation? According to Christian morality, people will go to hell if they do not accept Christ as their saviour. These people do not know better. Why let them go to hell?
If forced conversion is unpalatable, why not then at the very least mandate Bible classes as compulsory up to secondary school level? In this way, there is no forced conversion, but exposure to the faith is maximised, thus increasing the number of people who would 'voluntarily' convert. Would this not be a good idea?
Regarding the Great Depression:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression
Read the parts about the Smoot-Hawley Act (trade tariffs) and the cutting of money supply by the US Federal Reserve.
Last point. Labour elasticity. Why do you think labour demand is inelastic? I think the events over the past decade has shown that to be false. Firstly labour is easily substitutable. If that were not the case, why would there be so many retrenchments in Singapore? Secondly, labour not only competes with machines, it also competes with cheaper labour from elsewhere.
gayle May 16, 2006 03:41 PM PDT "Name me a single country that has received foreign aid and has successfully managed to get out of the cycle of poverty. A grand total of zero."
Interesting, Singapore is one such country who received aid from Japan. Brazil, Mexico, Chile, your tiger economies.
"Imagine that a Christian political party has gained the majority in Singapore's parliament, and have passed a constitutional amendment making Christianity the national religion of Singapore. As a result, every person would have to convert to Christianity. What is your opinion about this?"
I wouldn't support it at all. Faith is something that is intensely personal, and baptism and conversion on paper means nothing if it is coerced.
Re: micro loans. Private companies do this, yes, but they also tend to run away quickly where there is great credit risk because of gambling husbands, etc., whereas organizations such as the World Bank are more likely to stay and work things out, do house visits, and so on.
About all the other stuff, let me just say again that I am not for heavy government intervention. We've been shown time and time again that that fails. But I am for timely and well-planned govt intervention only when the free will of individuals compromises the well-being of others, that being when we have a moral obligation to act. Abusively long working hours. Unsafe machinery where MNCs could well afford to upgrade AND still hire kids as they are cheaper, and their services demand inelastic. Pollutive companies which would otherwise have free rein. I really don't want to conflate "should morality be a yardstick in governance and economics" with "should governments be interventionist" because I'm on your side for the latter one, I just don't believe in an extremist stance.
By the way, the Great Depression largely ensued from rampant capital inflow and outflow and an unmanaged floating exchange rate with no government regulation. The fixed exchange rate and later, the managed float was needed to return stability to the system. Govt intervention, where otherwise an open economy would cause countries to be too vulnerable and the int'l economy too volatile. But again, I'm not really interested with this debate of intervention vs non intervention, so let's pls not dwell there :)
Han May 16, 2006 03:29 PM PDT I left the link out. Here's the research and evidence of private social entrepreneurship providing cheap, quality education for Nigerian kids done in actual practice.
Han May 16, 2006 03:24 PM PDT I just remembered that I want to stress to you that I'm not trying to defend big business per se. I am trying to defend the freedom of individuals to purse their own courses of action so far as those actions do not impose a cost on others without consent.
Government regulations on corporations often hit small-business owners the hardest, simply because they are the ones without the resources to cope with such compliance. I submit to you that the perverse consequences of state intervention is to raise the barriers of entry for small businesses, thus reducing competition for big business, and entrenching their power.
I am hoping to convince you of the power of human ingenuity in creating wealth and welfare for other people voluntarily without state intervention, not in spite of profit, but precisely because of profit. Cheap private schools providing quality education for the poor is precisely the sort of innovative entrepreneurship we need, not more government intervention.
Thus, I am not advocating INACTION in the face of moral injustice, rather, I am advocating PRIVATE ACTION. See something you think is wrong? Do something yourself. Don't ask the government for help or to do something, because with your intelligence and creativity, YOU can do it.
By the way, you still have to answer my scenario.
Imagine that a Christian political party has gained the majority in Singapore's parliament, and have passed a constitutional amendment making Christianity the national religion of Singapore. As a result, every person would have to convert to Christianity. What is your opinion about this?
"And yes, I can choose to plan better while I'm young, but if I'm working on a pittance of a salary and my employer is not obliged to contribute anything to my CPF, I will nevertheless find myself royally screwed."
But you are assuming that compulsory savings is the solution to the problem. As evident from fact, CPF is in fact insufficient for 2 reasons: firstly, the returns on CPF funds is abysmal, due to the fact that those managing the funds are buearucrats with no inkling of how the free market works. Secondly, is this thing called moral hazard. I suppose they don't teach that in JC econs because the Singapore government doesn't want young Singaporeans to start getting ideas about how they can get along without government help. Maybe you can go look it up. "Moral Hazard".
Second. Foreign aid. Again I shall refer to facts. Name me a single country that has received foreign aid and has successfully managed to get out of the cycle of poverty. A grand total of zero. Any country that receives foreign aid almost always ends up as basketcase countries with tinpot dictators sucking up foreign aid for their own kleptocracy.
Micro-loans. Again, here you are wrong. The most famous of all micro-credit organisations, Grameen Bank, IS a private initiative. You are sorely mistaken to think that governments are the ones who created this wonderful concept. Just check out their webpage for the information. http://www.grameen-info.org/
Third. Schools and hospitals. I think here is a very clear example where I can provide evidence to refute your stance. A very simple correlation: state-owned schools are crap, while private schools are the best. It is no coincidence that American universities are the best in the world while those in continental Europe and the UK are stagnating. As a contrast, the primary and secondary school system in the United States is a public system, and the evidence clearly shows that it simply does not provide a proper education for children.
Let us consider Singapore. I think it is also clear that the 'independent' schools, which have more independence and leeway in their administration, perform so much better than those tightly leashed by the ministry of education. You might want to consider that.
lastly, apart from quality, there is also quantity. When you say 'not enough schools', what do you mean by 'not enough'? how do you decide how much is not enough? by what benchmark?
Regarding African poverty. I think it is here that you have demonstrated a misconception of free will. Governments cannot have free will. Corporations cannot have free will. Only individuals have free will. Thus when you say that Ethiopians are poor because of the 'free will' of other countries, what you are trying to say is that the Ethiopians are poor because the governments of other countries saw fit to intervene in the lives of Ethiopians without their consent. Your answer merely supports my arguments that governments are still the primary cause of human suffering.
I disagree that people will be stuck in a cycle of poverty if there is no intervention by governments. In fact, I argue that the reverse is true. when governments intervene to protect jobs or reserve jobs for people, there is little or no incentive at all for people to adapt to change. Again, moral hazard.
I think your understanding of what 'moral' means is somewhat different from mine, which is perhaps the reason why we seem to be arguing on different points. I shall try to explain my position with a thought experiment, care to try?
I see that you self-identify as a Christian. I shall try using your own personal experiences as a way to illustrate my point.
Imagine that a Christian political party has gained the majority in Singapore's parliament, and have passed a constitutional amendment making Christianity the national religion of Singapore. As a result, every person would have to convert to Christianity. What is your opinion about this?
gayle May 16, 2006 02:07 PM PDT Re: underage drinking, hush, free will remember?
Free will: Again you are taking me out of context, which is odd because I was applying -your- context in the first place. When a child is born into poverty he has little choice but to resort to desperate measures like working in factories with unsafe conditions in order to survive. I'm not saying ALL free will is illusory, as I already expounded on the varying degrees of autonomy one has over one's life, e.g. I didn't choose to be born Chinese, but I can choose to learn English - or something like that. I didn't choose my older brother but I can choose not to like him. I can't choose the fact that there was only Milo and water in my fridge this morning but I can choose between Milo and water (I chose Milo, yum). And yes, I can choose to plan better while I'm young, but if I'm working on a pittance of a salary and my employer is not obliged to contribute anything to my CPF, I will nevertheless find myself royally screwed.
"The question is however, many who are born into poverty transcend their difficulties. Why?"
First of all, I very much doubt the chances of them 'transcending their difficulties' when working in a sweatshop in 16-hour shifts are very high. If you can find me an example it's an exception. Of course we want them to transcend their difficulties though. That's why we give them opportunities to do so, like channelling foreign aid into building schools for them (not a private sector initiative), like providing micro-loans for poor women (not a private sector initiative).
A very simple example is the case of public goods vs. private goods. Left to the free will of individuals and corporations, we'd never have enough schools or hospitals. Sometimes you need a macro perspective and a macro initiative to implement policies that take into consideration the interests of larger society. The existence of public goods is a manifestation of that need.
'Why are Ethiopians so poor'? An excellent question! Here is your answer: because they were at the mercy of other countries' free will and self interest. When Mussolini overran Ethiopia in 1941, did anyone help him despite Selassie's appeals? It was selfishness and 'free will' on the part of Mussolini, and inaction and non-intervention on the part of the Western powers that contributed to Ethiopia's shadowed past. Subsequently, the wealth in Ethiopia was restrained to the inner elite; the nobility, the church. All this happened because of your free will and non-interventionist govt. Yes, it might be rather tautological to blame every damn bad thing in history on free will, but I feel it to be relevant because the situation you are advocating calls for precisely such a situation. I think you should be the one concerned with the slippery slope phenomenon, especially because there is no moral yardstick as a check. Without that moral check, whether you leave it up to government intervention or free will of companies and individuals, it doesn't matter -- things will end up bad with free will and self interest left unchecked by any kind of moral yardstick that asks the right questions at the right time. The Holocaust, the Spanish Inquisition as you said, DID come about because of govts who took the initiative to intervene into people's lives, but they were allowed to perpetuate and get worse because no other country took a step back and said: hey wait a minute, this is morally wrong! Should we act?
I understand your model and I must say I applaud it, but there are certain contexts in which it doesn't hold. Ethiopia may be poor in part because of government corruption, but the question is how we deal with that; inaction, or a moral responsibility to think of solutions for the country -- solutions that will not spontaneously result? Perhaps your model might work excellently in perfect conditions, but given realist considerations, the only way to combat the imperfections is to not lose sight of that moral yardstick by which we judge the impact of our policies. If the means of non-intervention coincide with the ends, then by all means, sure, but the debate occurs where there is a clash. Where free will of MNCs means that these kids may have employment, sure, but they will also never upgrade their skills, be entrenched into that cycle of poverty, stuck sewing the soles of our Nike shoes, not being able to go to school, and die early. And let's not assume that making Nike introduce minimum wages will result in less children being unemployed -- their profit margins are so huge they can afford to do that, and still hire kids as they're cheaper. Labour demand inelastic.
Han May 16, 2006 12:09 PM PDT lol. tipsy? omg aren't you underaged to be drinking?
gayle May 16, 2006 12:23 AM PDT Argh, Han, this is starting to become a dead horse flogged five times over and sent to an abattoir. I would reply you tonight but I'm a little bit.. tipsy. And tired. Yes tired. Tomorrow then.
If free will is illusory, then the basis of all human relationship will cease to exist. I don't know about you, but that sounds nihilistic, and pretty nutty to me.
you state that we have no choice over the conditions we are born into. I agree with that. The question is however, many who are born into poverty transcend their difficulties. Why?
Secondly, your answer to that problem is:
"I say it's moral to help them, and economic and political arms of the state are the best tools with which to ensure that they have a minimum standard of living."
However, this does not address the fundamental question: why are Ethiopians so poor?
This again brings me back to my central thesis: every instance of human suffering in human history has the dark hands of government intervention in it. The reason why Ethiopians, and many African nations, are so poor, is precisely because those very tools you speak of are not used for the benevolent purposes you assume they would be. African governments are the very reason why their people suffer.
Third. While I agree with you that we have no choice over the conditions of our birth, I cannot agree with you that anything else after that is out of our capacity to deal with. While one does not choose to grow old, I think it is disingenuous to claim that one cannot choose to plan one's life such that there are sufficient funds to sustain incapacity in old age. The very fact that one is aware of that possibility makes that lack of choice as an excuse. Following this line of logic, might you not as well say that you have no choice over whether the sun rises tomorrow?
Regarding government regulation. I actualy specifically addressed this issue. "If the cost of the regulation outweighs the benefits of employing the children, then the result is that the children will not even have jobs at all."
Regarding decision-making by children. This is what you said:
"I note you have conceded that decisions are not always made with clarity of thought when it comes to children."
That's interesting, because I never made any concession of any sort. What I said was that children are not capable of giving consent, and thus are not capable of being a consenting party to a contract of employment. My argument is that because children do not have the requisite mental capacity to understand the contents of a contract, they should not be made to abide by them. This is not an issue regarding clarity of thought at all.
I also don't understand how that logically follows into me saying that adults make rational decisions, which I never said at all. What I did say is that those who do intentionally inflict suffering upon others are irrational.
Lastly, you contrasted governments and corporations. I think this is the most fundemental mistake that contemporary socialism makes. Corporations do not require constraints, it is governments that do.
Again, let me reiterate, with the full support of history: you will find the dark hand of the state in any instance where there is human misery inflicted. did corporations inflict the Inquisition in Europe? Did corporations cause the 2 world wars? Did corporations condemn jews to the holocaust? did corporations inflict the ethnic cleansing in serbia and darfur?
Let me put it this way. the bottomline of business is to make money. You can't do that when the people who wants to buy your goods or services are dead, or the people working for you are killed. Governments on the other hand face no such constraints.
When you say governments are kept in check by the institutions of democracy, do keep in mind that there are few, if any, such governments existing. Furthermore, the checks faced by governments are determined by themselves, when you face a system of government that has plenary legislative power, e.g. Singapore parliament. The closest to any political system has come to a true separation of powers is the United States, and yet that is still not immune to abuse. How can you honestly believe that government is the answer to the problems we face?
I guess I might not have made my position clear, so let me try.
The default position of any society should be that individuals should not have constraints on their actions unless their actions impose a cost on someone else without that person's consent. Thus implicit in that statement is that everyone should be made to bear the cost of their own actions. Cost has a very wide meaning, not restricted to just money, but also harm to the self, to property and in some instances, the mind as well.
Consent is important because that forms the basis of how people transact and cooperate with each other. Consent is invalidated where there is coercion, physical violence or fraud.
Thus in my model, corporations hiring adults should be none of the government's business. Corporations kidnapping children to work in factories should attract criminal penalties with regards to those who made that decision. Adults who consent to have sex with each other should be none of the government's business. Any person who forces another to engage in sexual activity should face criminal penalties. And so on and so on.
I hope what I'm describing is intelligible. I'm trying my best to describe the minarchist model of government.
gayle May 15, 2006 05:42 PM PDT Han: No, I just said the first thing that came to mind to end the comment as I was blogging in between classes. I like your comments, even if I don't agree with all of them.
Regarding free will, I believe that it is an illusion regarding your application of it, which is to believe in it so wholeheartedly you would abandon everything to it. In reality, of course there are varying degrees of autonomy one has over different things, and the nature of every society lies in how it finds its own balance between free will and imposition, e.g. you have the freedom to extend your hand until it comes into contact with my nose. So I see nothing in my argument that absolute free will is an illusion that would point towards a slippery slope of abuse considering that the context in which I applied it was simple: you didn't get to choose to be born a poor starving Ethiopian.
Nor, for that matter, since you apply this to adults as well, did you "choose" to grow old and incapable of working to support yourself. Nor do you "choose" to be born a wheelchair bound paraplegic. Nor do you choose to have a heart attack at 40 and find yourself subsequently unemployed. But all these things happpen, and all these people exist; the question is if it is right to leave it up to 'free will' (under which conditions they would never be helped, or given limited support from private donors) and leave it out of the realm of economics and govt policy. I say it's moral to help them, and economic and political arms of the state are the best tools with which to ensure that they have a minimum standard of living.
Regarding your 'after' effects, I find it curious that you decided to point me towards closing factories and making girls turn to prostitution rather than taking on my proposal of govtal regulation to make sure companies' machines are safe for children, for example, which is a very simple step but not something taken out of 'free will'. Obviously every single policy's "before" and "after" must be weighed out, but one poorly thought out policy is hardly enough to convince us that we should take no action in the future.
Regarding child labour and pre marital sex, I note you have conceded that decisions are not always made with clarity of thought when it comes to children. Why then do you assume that adults make clear and rational choices, much less corporations? If you say government officials who have had experience, education, and who are kept in check by the institutions of a democracy, can make bad decisions, aren't these adults and corporations likely to make even more disastrous ones? I mean, that's why we have the idea of surrendering man's natural liberties and creating a society where the govt is given a mandate to do something in the first place.
"What I am saying is, that if the institutions of power that constitute the government have been designed in such a way so as to separate and diffuse the power of the government to the extent where politicians can exercise their own free will, but never to the extent where they can use that power to beggar private citizens, then we would have succeeded in minimizing the harms."
So why is it bad to beggar private citizens again? You still have not pointed out to me your yardstick for measuring harm. I at least can say, it is improper and unvirtuous conduct for a politician to abuse his authority and make a citizen suffer because of it. I'm not sure what your rationale is.
are you trying to get me to stop commenting on your blog by saying bye bye? ;)
anyhow, I guess then the central disagreement we have is over free will. You believe free will to be an illusion, I do not. I think the position that you are taking is a very dangerous one. Again, if you look at history, this is the very justification used by governments of any sort to control people's lives, from minor issues like chewing gum to major issues like property rights (e.g. people are too stupid to save for themselves, so we will force you to save, people are too stupid to choose the correct jobs we need in the economy so we shall stream them according to what we decide our economy needs.
I hope you see the slippery slope inherent in that position that you are taking. And don't say that slippery slope arguments are a logical fallacy, there are specific mechanisms in which they can operate.
http://www.law.ucla.edu/volokh/slippery.htm
On child labour.
Firstly I have to say that I am undecided about this. My personal preference is to not allow children to work at all as I make the same exceptions to free will with regards to employment as I do for sex, which is that only adults are capable of giving consent.
We however also have to face the reality that in many of the poorest parts of the world, children often have to work to help in supporting their family. Both my parents did the same when they were young, coming from poor families.
The question is, with the regulations you are talking about, does it affect at all the likelihood of employment, because if it does, hence it would be where the 'after' analysis comes in. If the cost of the regulation outweighs the benefits of employing the children, then the result is that the children will not even have jobs at all.
I can point to you actual real world effects of such regulations. I can't find the article right now, but activists in India succeeded in closing down a garment factory employing young girls. The result? The girls turned to prostitution. This is my point about analysing a problem in its totality. do not let your single conception of what is moral blind you to the differences between the 'before' and 'after'.
"By agreeing with me that we are 'minimizing the harms done' because politicians act out of self interest, you are conceding that free will is an insufficient mechanism to bear out human welfare in, and that we must minimize the ensuing harms."
I think you have misunderstood me. Politicians on their own may try to act in their self-interests, but free will can and will ensure human welfare as long as the free will of OTHER individuals are not constrained by the selfish interests of politicians.
The model of human behaviour you are proposing is one in which an entity has to constantly interfere and adjudicate in order for just outcomes to arise. What I am saying that this is the road to ruin, because when you look at human history, the greatest suffering and pain inflicted upon humans have always been governments and states usurped by the selfish interests of politicians.
Remember this: There is such a thing called 'unintended consequences' and 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions'. I can show you a million and one idealistic movements in the world which ended up inflicting untold suffering on countless innocents. Governments and states are not omniscient entities which can manipulate and make things right with a wave of the wand, and when they try to do so, usually the reverse happens.
What I am saying is, that if the institutions of power that constitute the government have been designed in such a way so as to separate and diffuse the power of the government to the extent where politicians can exercise their own free will, but never to the extent where they can use that power to beggar private citizens, then we would have succeeded in minimizing the harms.
gayle May 15, 2006 02:51 PM PDT Just one more thing Han, I wasn't [entirely!] referring to you guys when I said I get really frustrated when people don't care :) I was referring to bigoted, insensitive, and unapologetically expedient people I know in my own life who defend themselves with pseudo-intellectualism to justify the fact that they are cruel bastards. On that cheerful note, byebye!
gayle May 15, 2006 02:51 PM PDT Just one more thing Han, I wasn't [entirely!] referring to you guys when I said I get really frustrated when people don't care :) I was referring to bigoted, insensitive, and unapologetically expedient people I know in my own life who defend themselves with pseudo-intellectualism to justify the fact that they are cruel bastards. On that cheerful note, byebye!
gayle May 15, 2006 02:43 PM PDT Han, you disagree with what I think should be done by saying that all considerations of morality should be removed from economics. You clarified your stand later by telling me that free will is the constant across the board. Free will is an illusion. The ten year old child who chooses of his free will to work in a sweatshop where he risks being maimed by outmoded machinery is making this choice because he was born into a poor country and his family can't bring food to the table without him -- and he was born into that situation not of his own free will. Do we leave him to put his health and safety in danger of his own 'free will', or do we take steps to make sure that what has been forced onto him (poverty, inherited debt, etc) should not be allowed to compel him into making that decision to work in a dangerous environment by making it illegal for others to profit from his misfortune in this abusive manner, and also seeking other solutions for this child through foreign aid programs and NGO development help?
You say policies should be judged with 'before' and 'after'. I agree, except you forget 'during' (the impact of the policy on the lives of the people in the interim must also be considered, but that's not the point here). When you judge it 'before' however, you claim one must take into consideration whether or not a decision was made out of free will, which I've already pointed out is an illusion -- some type of Hobbesian choice. When you judge it on 'after', I question you on your yardstick. If according to you one should not use morality in our considerations, then bearing in mind that morality in govt policies centres around improving the human condition of people overseas and in your own country as a fundamental moral obligation, then how precisely is one supposed to judge the 'after'? I say the aftermath of allowing a child to be a dangerous work environment because companies are too lazy and profiteering to invest in safety regulations is morally reprehensible. Perhaps you might say, well without that dangerous work environment that child would starve, and the alternative is worse. But allow me to point out that by rejecting some seemingly easy solutions such as dangerous work conditions for children as morally wrong in the first place, we can a) undercut that immoral practice, and b) look for better solutions, such as regulating the company so that it is legally bound to ensure the safety of the children, or to allow some time for them to go to school in the morning and only work a short shift in the afternoon. The labour is still cheap, the children are still able to find work, but they also get an education. Not to mention all the other concurrent policies to help. But these things do not get enacted *spontaneously*, and they certainly would never be enacted if we left all companies and labour units to act of their own "free will".
About the politicians acting on self interest alone bar all moral considerations, I believe you are sidestepping the issue somewhat. By agreeing with me that we are 'minimizing the harms done' because politicians act out of self interest, you are conceding that free will is an insufficient mechanism to bear out human welfare in, and that we must minimize the ensuing harms. What is your rationale then, behind minimizing the harm that comes out of their self-centredness? If morality is not your yardstick, again, then what is it? How do you even measure or register that a harm has taken place?
sometimes when people disagree with you intellectually, it may not be because they don't care, but because they disagree with your opinions on what should be done.
gayle May 15, 2006 01:26 AM PDT Linda: Exactly. Sometimes the intellectualism is so wearying and I just want to grab someone by the shoulders, look them in the eye and ask: but don't you care? How can you not?
Linda Chia May 14, 2006 08:21 PM PDT Not many things that I can say that has not already been said (and I'm not in the mood for intellectual wanking today), but really, on a human to human level, it is really saddening.
Where is the love?
Should one day I become a complete self-serving bitch with nary a care for another human-kind not related to me, please shoot me.
Jol May 14, 2006 06:32 PM PDT Han:
If everyone in the world is irrational, what use is there left for the word "rationality"?
Han May 14, 2006 05:25 PM PDT Recommended JC year one reading:
"the same American Founding Fathers who wrote that it was self-evident that all men are created equal also kept slaves, and appeared to have no stains on their consciences."
But then again not ALL of them were slave-owners, firstly. Secondly, they did not consider blacks to be 'men', a problem which they thankfully rectified. When considered with your next points:
"Any number of prison reformers, appalled by the cruelty of Victorian practice, similarly decried homosexuality and shuddered at the notion of female suffrage."
I still can make a point for rationality. My argument is that these systems of oppression are run by people who use an incomplete understanding of science to support their own agendas.
Apart from religious reasons, Victorians also thought that homosexuality was a psychological disorder, which is obviously wrong. Even more ludicrous was the notion that women were not as intelligent as men, which the gracious blog-hostess Gayle and you Jol have proven wrong. =)
In both instances, of homosexuality and equal rights for women, opponents equally cloaked their beliefs under the guise of morality. It is immoral to be gay. It is immoral for women to be independent from men. etc etc. For some reason, this amorphous and easily twisted idea of morality does not sit well with me.
"If it is true that anyone who behaves in an unnecessarily hurtful or sadistic fashion is "insane" or "irrational", we are all insane and irrational in our own fashion, and the word loses all meaning."
In allowing for the great diversity in human behaviours, I shall say that causing hurt or sadism between adults should not be prohibited by law as long as the acts are free and consensual.
"It would be rational to go to war with a weaker country if u're the most powerful nation in the world, no one dares to stop u, and that nation possessed all the oil u needed."
Wrong. Indeed, only very stupid politicians will think this way (personally I think all politicians are stupid). Every action has costs and benefits, and the cost of ANY war far outweighs the benefits of obtaining that resource. Why do you think that peacetime is always the greatest time of prosperity? When countries do not fight, but instead trade with each other, there are no costs, but only benefits.
And indeed, outsourcing is one of the processes of free trade. Thus this is still central to my thesis: protectionism is always bad, because when you examine the history of protectionism, it is always accompanied by nationalism and war.
"So if we don't import morality into the government, should the government also not take a stand on murder then? Should it not take a stand on rape? Without considerations of morality, how do we decide what to 'import' into government policies?"
I apologise that I did not make myself clear earlier. I shall try to make my stance clearer.
Governments should not legislate morality, but only enact laws which prohibit any acts which are done to a person without that person's consent, or have consent invalidated by coercion, physical violence or fraud.
Thus in your example, murder and rape is clearly prohibited, because murder is to kill a person without their consent, and rape is the sexual penetration of a person without that person's consent.
"So you condone sweat shops which make use of children to work long hours in hazardous conditions?"
A primary consideration would be whether the children entered employment voluntarily. Keep in mind that in many poor countries, the children help in earning money for the family. My father worked in a farm when he was a child to support my aunties and uncles, and yet that was the only way that the family could survive.
Policy should be evaluated on the basis of 'before and after', and not on your emotion. The first threshold is free will, whether the act has been done freely, without duress or influence from a third party, and secondly, whether the child or family is better off after the child starts working.
"You affirm that kidnapping and prostituting young children in Thailand where the shadow economy is huge is a desirable thing because it earns them revenue?"
I think that is a huge heap in logic and completely misunderstanding what I am saying. When I say that morality should not be part of policy, I neglected to mention that the law should prohibit any instances where people are forced to do acts, or have acts done to them, without their consent, or have their consent invalidated by duress, coercion, physical violence or fraud.
In your scenario, revenue is not an issue. The issue is, did the prostitutes freely give consent, and are they able to give consent (age and mental capacity being a factor to consider). If an adult woman freely decides, without coercion or fraud, to be a prostitute, why should others interfere?
"where those in power do whatever they can to further THEIR OWN interests because there are no external considerations"
You have struck upon the single most important point about politics. ALL politicians, and quite possibly all others, do whatever they can to further their own interests. My position is quite different from commenters below: I'm not saying this is how life is deal with it. I'm saying that since this is an inescapable fact of life, we must therefore find out how to minimise the kinds of harms that come with it.
'Moreality' as you call it more often does harm than good, because politicians always do things to benefit themselves, but are still able to cloak these acts under the guise of morality.
The far better long term solution is to have a minimal and as small a government as possible so that it cannot control people's lives, and then create structures of checks and balances against state power so that no one politician can ever gain a monopoly on power.
gayle May 14, 2006 01:36 AM PDT Ian, it IS you! Hope you and your sister are well.
Ian May 13, 2006 06:29 PM PDT Hey that wasn't as cheesy as 'sea seraph' ;)
kwayteowman May 13, 2006 04:12 PM PDT Gayle, I really like your idealism and I think you write very well.
As someone older and perhaps a little less idealistic, I would like to highlight that there is a need to reflect on government policies more rationally and not get emotional.
On the idea of the retirement village. We have to ask ourselves what's really going on. If Singaporeans were all filial kids who will look after their parents and take care of their parents in their own homes when they grow old, why should we even need retirement villages?
There is a problem: Singaporeans are NOT taking care of their old folks and what's happening is that the burden is now placed on the State. Fair enough some will say since Singaporeans pay taxes right? So, if people want to abandon their parents and make it the Government's problem, so be it.
Then you have to ask ourselves, how best to provide for these old folks. The challenge is to provide quality care to the elderly given a greying population. The fact is -- it is perhaps not economical for us to consider building the retirement villages in Singapore, so we look a little further away in the region.
Fair enough I say. In any case hor, it's not like it's free leh. The people who want to stay there will still have to pay for it. If it turns out to be a terrible idea, no one will go and the Government will lose money and Khaw get flak.
I think you're over-reacting. :-) Similarly for the comments by Bilahari.
Our nation is facing severe economic challenges which are apparent to some, but invisible to many of the middle-income people. Idealism is good, but at the end of the day hor, cannot eat one. :-)
hecate May 13, 2006 03:45 AM PDT As a small country, we make no illusions about our size and capabilities. This is something which is often spoken of in the MFA, and its true.
Because we are so small in size, we cannot afford to offend anyone in any terms. True, we have our spats with our neighbours from time to time. But look at Singapore's relations with the big powers, China, USA. We tread very carefully because as a small country dependant upon our trade for growth, there is really nothing else we can do.
You say that our foreign policy reflects the domestic policies. Well, let's just remind ourselves that the only way to equality in material terms is by way of communism, and that's another can of worms altogether.
Foreign policies affect domestic politics and vice versa, but to judge a MFA official of his words on our domestic politics is unfair. As you'd probably know, many people the state of international affairs to be one of anarchy, where Realism rules the day. It is every state for itself, and very much true indeed. Which brings me back to my point on how Singapore being a small country cannot afford to have any illusions about our size and capabilities. That is why we practice "pragmatic realism", we make friends with whoever are friendly with us. Which is why international politics is always ugly, hypocritical, and never nice to know, because at the end of the day, it is realism that often takes over in the foreign policy behaviour of states.
Perhaps Mr Bilahari isn't really the way he seems to be in private. Perhaps its just the nature of his job that makes him the way he is.
Also, the bit about Burma and ASEAN. Lest we forget, all member states of ASEAN signed the Treaty of Amity and Cooperaton (TAC), which explicitly states a policy of non-intervention. With that, there really is nothing much the rest of ASEAN, let alone Singapore can do to lead a regime change in Burma. Of course, ASEAN as an institution in itself is still rather weak, and it would probably still be for a while.
I agree with you that so long as Burma remains under the rule of the junta, ASEAN as a regional institution will remain weak at its core, but at the same time, it is rather circular, noting that ASEAN itself is already weak thus unable to deal with the Burma issue.
That said, I do not disagree with what you've mentioned in your post. But while looking at Singapore's politics, both internal and external, let's not forget that the study of politics, both domestic and international, is often made up of many other nuances and linkages that we don't often see at first glance.
cindy May 13, 2006 01:13 AM PDT i think if you spoke to other civil servants (particularly in Ministry of Manpower, MCYS etc "social" ministries) you'll find a lot more compassion in the govt than bilahari had shown you. as a civil servant myself, and having met many other perm secs, i can tell you bilahari is not typical, in that respect. but that's also partly why he's so good at what he does.
gayle May 12, 2006 11:55 PM PDT Ian: Were you at one point 'Pip' on ICQ, or something like that?
Jol May 12, 2006 07:00 PM PDT Han:
I do not think people who want to hurt others are "obviously" either "irrational" or "insane." There were perfectly lucid and clear-thinking people who ran all sorts of systems of oppression: the same American Founding Fathers who wrote that it was self-evident that all men are created equal also kept slaves, and appeared to have no stains on their consciences. Any number of prison reformers, appalled by the cruelty of Victorian practice, similarly decried homosexuality and shuddered at the notion of female suffrage. The PAP and some ideological sympathisers that it has - intelligent, well-meaning friends of mine, for instance - also come to mind.
If it is true that anyone who behaves in an unnecessarily hurtful or sadistic fashion is "insane" or "irrational", we are all insane and irrational in our own fashion, and the word loses all meaning.
The explanation that sits better with my experience - and, I believe, that of most people - is that we are all blind to some kinds of suffering. We are all limited in our empathy with others. The goal is to expange the range of persons with whom we can identify, and so expand the range of targets of our empathy. At least, this is the goal of the liberal, and I do not believe it is one that is achievable through what is commonly regarded as "rational" argument alone - or even, I would venture to say, primarily.
Ian May 12, 2006 06:10 PM PDT Han:
It would be rational to steal/shoplift (for example from a big exploitative MNC) if u don't feel it's morally wrong and u knew the chances of u getting away were far higher than the chances of u being caught. It would be rational to go to war with a weaker country if u're the most powerful nation in the world, no one dares to stop u, and that nation possessed all the oil u needed. It would be rational
to sue a political competitor for defamation even if u knew u had no grounds for doing so, simply because the legal system was in ur hands.
So if we don't import morality into the government, should the government also not take a stand on murder then? Should it not take a stand on rape? Without considerations of morality, how do we decide what to 'import' into government policies? How does the government decide what laws to implement in order to deter the rational, heartless, individual from doing a certain deed (like rape), so that making such a decision would become irrational because of the punishment? Where do u draw the line?
U bring up the scenario about government illegalizing gay/lesbians if they consider morality. U imply that's bad. If so, u imply policies against gay/lesbians would be immoral. It would therefore be immoral to discriminate against them. Then we would have to bring the moral consideration of not discriminating against gay/lesbians into government policy. At the same time, we believe rapists are immoral. It would be immoral not to discriminate against them allow them to go scott free. This time we would have to bring the moral consideration of discriminating (punishing) against rapists into government policy. If there was not law against rapists, do u think 'rationality' will deter them from raping? To self-interested immoral rapists, rationality encompasses self-interests that encompass only himself. To us, rationality encompasses the interests of a larger group of people. How is rationality immediately supposed to tell us what's moral?
gayle May 12, 2006 04:20 PM PDT Economics should have nothing to do with morality?
So you condone sweat shops which make use of children to work long hours in hazardous conditions?
You feel we should send our elderly to where land is cheaper?
You affirm that kidnapping and prostituting young children in Thailand where the shadow economy is huge is a desirable thing because it earns them revenue?
If you do, then on the first level I'm quite disgusted.
On the second, I am concerned because you are advocating governance without a moral yardstick, which is precisely that which leaves it open to the lowest common denominator: where those in power do whatever they can to further THEIR OWN interests because there are no external considerations.
That's totally contrary to the point of a civil society, which is greatest good for the greatest number. Our existence and survival as a *group* is predicated upon consideration for others. The mechanisms we institute to serve this are only mechanisms, secondary to that primary consideration. We have companies, so we can have profits, so we can have WELFARE for our people. We have governments, and we make them accountable, so that they can accrue WELFARE for our people. When we start to say that companies and govts can do whatever they like without that consideration of welfare because that is a wishy washy moralist stance, then we have allowed the means to take precedence over the ends. We might as well not have had governments or companies in the first place if they were not held to some fundamental moral objectives, which include helping your poor, your sick, your old and your needy.
simplesandra May 12, 2006 04:20 PM PDT zyn wrote: "I argue that the ONLY way that human rights and welfare can be safeguarded is to remove all considerations of morality from government policies."
Yes, a very dangerous proposition when you consider that government policies dictate almost every aspect of life here. A democratic government have a responsiblity towards the very people who voted them in.
And economics should be devoid of morality? Ever wondered why economics is a social science, and not a business subject? Unless you intend to run a country as ruthlessly as a big corporation, then fine. Otherwise, you'll need to compromise, like it or not.
The dilemma you posed, how to deal with the concept of morality when faced with poor people from other countries and poor people from within our country is precisely the reason why economics does not, and should not deal with morality.
At the end of the day, governments have no business telling private companies how they wish to spend their money. If they wish to use that money to hire foreigners or outsource the jobs to other countries, why should governments intervene?
Secondly, killing or stealing also does not require any considerations of morality. Only insane and irrational people would consider killing. If there is something you wish to get out of someone, it is far easier, cheaper and less risky to trade with that person than to kill him or her. Trade with that person, build a relationship, and you can trade for the rest of your life. Kill that person and that will be the only transaction one will ever make.
If you start trying to import morality into government policies, then the results will be the precise problem that minorities such as gays and lesbians currently face, which is sanction by the 'moral majority'.
I argue that the ONLY way that human rights and welfare can be safeguarded is to remove all considerations of morality from government policies.
immeraviya May 12, 2006 09:49 AM PDT hi gayle,
thanks for a fascinating post. my gut reaction was "yay! finally, my idealism has a companion." :-) but skimming through some of the responses, i have narrowed it down to 2 things that really resonated with me.
1. the observation that singaporean policies all have one fundamental overarching premise and that is, individuals are valued for their economic usefulness first and foremost (if not solely). this was made abundantly clear to me with sm/pm(?)'s comment that gay people are now 'acceptable' because (based on the example of san francisco) they are creative and can help generate a vibrant arts scene in singapore. riiiiight ...
2. i guess i do agree wih the people who say that foreign policy has to be guided by "self" interest, i.e national interest. that's what works, right? obviously, it would be "ideal" if foreign policy had altruistic influences too. ibut we build to that, right? therefore, i agree with whoever said that while there could be an excuse for a self-interested foreign policy, there is none for a similarly-themed domestic policy. but this is the mindset we have inherited from our founding fathers, captured so irritatingly in the catchphrases: "no one owes us a living" and the "humans are our only resource".
now it's my turn to add something of my personal experience ...
an american friend once commented after one visit here that singapore is his idea of gulliver's lilliput. at first i was really annoyed. but after i thought about it, i realized the aptnes of his comparison. with our landscaped gardens and everything running like clockwork; singaporeans scuttling around in our man-made world. the smallness and limitations of our reality are certainly not apparent to the lilliputians ... it's as if our whole lives are a farce ...
and you know how singaporeans have the highest rate of myopia in the world - 1 in 2 or something? i like to think of it as being the physical manifestation of our short-sightedness as a people. perhaps that is our cross to bear ... ? anyways, it's random, but this observation of mine amuses me no end. and yes, i'm doomed to wear glasses like the rest of us :-P
i also firmly believe that idealism has an important role to play in shaping our reality. as an individual who is now rather disillusioned with how she has seen large bureaucracies run, i find hope in the knowledge that we can influence the world most immediately and profoundly through those closest to us. the life that i touch, the life that touches mine - that is my domestic and foreign policy. that is my reality. and it is my perogative to shape it.
whew!
in sum, i enjoyed this post immensely (and the responses it attracted.)
Foreign policy, like Law is like sausages. Your stomach will turn if you see it being made. Bismarck said that. Col Jessop said something similar too.
I think Bilahari Kausikan did a wonderful thing by being frank and truthful with students. You are better off knowing the truth than being fed political correct nonsense that may have left you with a warm fuzzy feeling.
That's because foreign policy almost everywhere in the world is based on realism. No permanent friends or enemies. Only permanent interests. It is as true for Singapore as it is for the United States or any other country. But they always put a nice spin to it for public consumptions. That's what you'll see in your morning paper.
Ultimately, foreign policy is amoral. But people generally subject the state to anthropomorphism, as if the state were another human being subject to virtues and vices. Virtues and vices apply to individuals, not states.
One more thing. It is important to listen and pay attention to what you like to hear. It is more important to pay attention to what you don't like to hear.
All the best.
Elia Diodati May 12, 2006 04:34 AM PDT I have had very similar experiences talking to senior civil servants. It's really sad to see that despite all the rhetoric for reform, very little has actually changed in the last 4 years.
immeraviya May 12, 2006 02:12 AM PDT hi gayle,
thanks for a fascinating post. my gut reaction was "yay! finally, my idealism has a companion." :-) but skimming through some of the responses, i have narrowed it down to 2 things that really resonated with me.
1. the observation that singaporean policies all have one fundamental overarching premise and that is, individuals are valued for their economic usefulness first and foremost (if not solely). this was made abundantly clear to me with sm/pm(?)'s comment that gay people are now 'acceptable' because (based on the example of san francisco) they are creative and can help generate a vibrant arts scene in singapore. riiiiight ...
2. i guess i do agree wih the people who say that foreign policy has to be guided by "self" interest, i.e national interest. that's what works, right? obviously, it would be "ideal" if foreign policy had altruistic influences too. ibut we build to that, right? therefore, i agree with whoever said that while there could be an excuse for a self-interested foreign policy, there is none for a similarly-themed domestic policy. but this is the mindset we have inherited from our founding fathers, captured so irritatingly in the catchphrases: "no one owes us a living" and the "humans are our only resource".
now it's my turn to add something of my personal experience ...
an american friend once commented after one visit here that singapore is his idea of gulliver's lilliput. at first i was really annoyed. but after i thought about it, i realized the aptnes of his comparison. with our landscaped gardens and everything running like clockwork; singaporeans scuttling around in our man-made world. the smallness and limitations of our reality are certainly not apparent to the lilliputians ... it's as if our whole lives are a farce ...
and you know how singaporeans have the highest rate of myopia in the world - 1 in 2 or something? i like to think of it as being the physical manifestation of our short-sightedness as a people. perhaps that is our cross to bear ... ? anyways, it's random, but this observation of mine amuses me no end. and yes, i'm doomed to wear glasses like the rest of us :-P
i also firmly believe that idealism has an important role to play in shaping our reality. as an individual who is now rather disillusioned with how she has seen large bureaucracies run, i find hope in the knowledge that we can influence the world most immediately and profoundly through those closest to us. the life that i touch, the life that touches mine - that is my domestic and foreign policy. that is my reality. and it is my perogative to shape it.
whew!
in sum, i enjoyed this post immensely (and the responses it attracted.)
thanks and god bless.
zyn May 12, 2006 12:34 AM PDT han: you seem to be assuming that everyone has the same idea of rationality, and one that has some kind of moral import, at that. i don't think that's true. clearly, for instance, not everyone derives utility from doing good for the community. to some people it would be perfectly rational to steal money when you have none and kill anyone that stands in your way.
also, i take issue with your view that human compassion is an adequate argument for outsourcing. if i lost my job to a lower-paid indian or chinese worker, i sure as hell ain't gonna say "oh, take it, because you need it more than i do". that would be completely irrational - to me. (maybe not to you.) in any case, wouldn't that be uncompassionate to singaporean workers?
gayle: it's no secret that singapore has never let anything as nebulous and non-economically-beneficially as human rights interfere with its crazed desire to make as much money as possible. the other day i heard a minister say that sg would never make the same "mistake" as european countries of handing out welfare to its citizens. this morning, the former chief negotiator for china's entry into the wto said, to cheers and applause from local and chinese businessmen, that the western countries' emphasis on human rights was stupid because human rights doesn't put rice in your bowl.
the concept that human rights/welfare and economic development are not necessarily mutually exclusive appears to have completely escaped our country's leaders. i'm guessing this is the fault of the opposition, which is obviously distracting pm lee so much with their need to be "fixed" that he has no time to deal with an aging population that can't afford to retire because all their money is tied up in property that has seen values plummet and stay low over the last six years.
Han May 11, 2006 10:57 PM PDT One more thing I would like to mention.
Much is said about selfishness and caring for others. Maybe those against outsourcing might want to consider this.
People in other countries like India and China are poor, and in almost all cases poorer than we are. If jobs are outsourced to them, they gain a source of livelihood which they have not had before. Is it not selfish to deprive them of these new jobs by 'protecting' these jobs for Singaporeans?
Well, its rational to do good for the community and others because it makes one feel good to do so. Is that not rational?
When it feels good to cause pain and suffering to others, then it is plain that the person who feels this way is insane and/or irrational.
Jol May 11, 2006 10:16 PM PDT Han:
I don't think "self-interest" and "selfish" are the same thing but all these people who are saying "don't be naive, self-interest is dominant in all!" often conflate their own position with "don't be naive, selfishness is dominant in all!" I think you and I agree here; I think that there is a useful way to understand self-interest which is distinct from selfishness--
BUT where I do disagree with you is in the claim that working out the extent of 'rational' self-interest will somehow lead to the best moral outcome overall. The claim that the word 'rational' imports any kind of moral criteria is very difficult to sustain. I am not convinced that it is useful. Why is a sadistic pleasure in killing and torturing others any less rational than a desire to see a community flourish? The difference between the psychopath/egoist and the saint is NOT in rationality - it is in compassion and devotion to the well-being of others.
Han May 11, 2006 10:10 PM PDT I'd just like to step in here and disagree with Jol regarding self-interest.
Self-interest is not the same as selfishness. While self-interest does mean something that would benefit oneself, it does not preclude benefit to another as well.
In fact, rational self-interest forms the basis for peace. Only crazy irrational people would start wars and conquer land for the purpose of gathering scarce resources, because the peaceful alternative, which is trade, is so much cheaper and safer.
Rationally self-interested people trade with each other and help each other because the alternative, people killing each other, is fundamentally irrational and against self-interest.
The consideration of compassion only serves to expand the self's perception of what the self is when considering self-interest. For example, acts of compassion helping one's family and loved ones are also considered acts of self-interest, because the family is also considered part of the self.
This is not about neo-liberalism or being selfish or evil etc etc. Only crazy irrational people will be selfish and/or evil. An example would be people who claim that being self-interested means acting like some selfish evil gargoyle to justify their own irrational selfish instincts.
Little Red Dot May 11, 2006 06:20 PM PDT To have a clearer picture of our Foreign Policy, please read "The Little Red Dot "Reflections by Singapore's Diplomats"
gayle May 11, 2006 05:43 PM PDT Jol- exactly: if it feels good for me to give 5 bucks to someone raising money for the children's cancer foundation, does that mean i'm doing it out of self interest? i think it's stupid to deny a human instinct to compassion and empathy and claim that everything should just be about me, my and mine, or "money money money" in this case.
Jol May 11, 2006 05:23 PM PDT Gayle: yah, he's a pong. Wah, when I read his articles I want to pluck my eyeballs out. So full of reductionistic East this West that. Bueh tahan.
All the "BUT SELF-INTEREST IS THE DEFINING HALLMARK OF HUMAN NATURE!" people - please don't buy this neo-liberal economic and positivistic rubbish. Obviously many people are strongly motivated to look out for their own financial and material advantage and in so doing ignore the interests of others. However, there is no basis whatsoever for assuming that these selfish impulses are in some way more intrinsic, more genuinely human, truer, than impulses of community, of charity, or of justice. There is no reason to divide the human being and human emotions into the "real self" (selfish, base, cares only about self and material things) and the "false self" (wishy-washy compassionate). Our interests in our own survival, our interests in our family's well-being, and our interests to see strangers justly served are ALL as much parts of our nature. When you risk your life to save your mother, as I think many people in the world would quite readily do, is that self-interest or not? How about when you risk your life to save your partner? There is nothing about being selfish that makes it an obvious, base-case necessity. It is harder for the weak to be magnanimous than it is for the strong, but there is no logical or metaphysical or necessary priority for some parts of our selves over others. Please don't see yourselves as so limited.
mrs budak May 11, 2006 04:53 PM PDT Self-interest is the hallmark of international politics. I appreciate the Perm Sec's candour; at least he didn't try to lace it with sugar to make it go down easier.
What galls me however were his remarks about Singapore's own citizens. It may be fine for you to be cavalier about other countries, but don't be so heartless about your own people. Do his views represent those of the upper echelons in our government? I wonder...
fancl May 11, 2006 04:01 PM PDT well written, enlightening and great post. i too appreciate him for his candor although would disagree with his approach. I would say the tone of his replies is however entirely consistent with MM Lee's general approach to all things (if the recent TV dialogue is anything to go by)
Ian May 11, 2006 03:13 PM PDT Oh by the way,
We almost certainly could afford to significantly decrease military/defense (which comprises an inordinate portion of our budget in both comparative and absolute terms) spending to help the poor. Also, we certainly can arguably reform policies like the COE to help the middle class. This is not the time to elaborate on these though.
Mezzo May 11, 2006 03:00 PM PDT Just a quick comment:
In the 1950s-60s: We weren't *that* worried about the communists per se, we were more worried about what the other countries were going to do if we did turn communist.
Re: Foreign affairs - much as I hate to defend a Minister, he was being perfectly honest, refreshingly so, partly because he knew a lot of the students had MFA on their minds. The pragmatic self-interested mindset something you'll have to consider before you'll ever step into the place.
And MFA is acting, well, like every other government in the world. I'd be a lot more worried if they were actually incompetent.
Ian May 11, 2006 02:54 PM PDT Hi Gayle
It's worth pointing out though, that since realism is hinged on 'self-interest', that it may in fact not actually be in ur interest in IR to appear TOO self-interested. So a more compassionate policy stance could still fall under the realm of realism. We should not let realism become an excuse for 'imprudence'.=)
A lot of people find it easy to take the cynical view and say that 'everyone's fundamentally selfish.' Well to some extent, being distinct individuals, we cannot help but act upon motives that are self-induced - thatz the whole definition of being an individual anyway. Part of the reason why Mother Theresa was so 'selfless' was because her 'self-satisfaction' and the 'self-interest' that fuelled the need to achieve this satisfaction in itself so oriented towards helping others. Mother Theresa would not have felt satisfied with herself is she did not do selfless deeds but u can't call her selfish for that; it really is a matter of how u derive satisfaction that u have met ur personal motivations and what those motivations encompass. Part of the reason why the majority of nations have agreed to the Universal Declaration on Human RIghts, the Convention Against Torture and the Genocide Convention, is because their self-motivation also encompasses principles that would be good for the whole of humanity. Part of the reason why Amnesty International was set up was (the same reason) I'm not saying humanity is basically good but what I'm saying is let's not over-simplify everything. Some countries are more selfish than others.
It's also worth pointing out that it's easier to be selfish when u're dealing with an abstraction like a mass of people than a single individual. Which is why as the saying goes 'killing one is a tragedy and killing thousands is a statistic.' A staunch catholic like George Yeo may well be more compassionate in person (i dont know) but he would find it easier to dish out realist policies if he's dealing with millions .
I think a lot of policies in singapore also dicriminate against the middle class (although this may depend on how u define middle class), which is why the WP describes the SG middle class as the 'new poor' It's well known that the biggest catalyst toward democracy is a prominent, educated, united, ambitious middle class that is not too bogged down with the stress of basic financial survival, especially when the cost of living is high. In terms of helping out the poor..well unless the government is really mis-using its colossal amounts of reserves and could in fact use some of that to help the poor; we would have to increase taxes in order to help them. I tend to be ecoomically conservative so I wouldn't usually support that.
honesty over hypocrisy May 11, 2006 01:20 PM PDT Self interest and selfishness are central hallmarks of human thinking and behaviour. Take a moment and consider if and how often you've ever done something that was ultimately not self-motivated. The payoff isn't always in monetary terms but it can come in the form of friendship that one yearns for, a future favour to be returned, a good standing in community, or even, a self-assuring feeling that 'i'm not such a rotten person after all'.
Hence, it is hard to imagine that a collective body of human beings will be able to act above and beyond self interest. The question, as pointed out already, is who's included in the 'self'?
This is a basic assumption of much of economic theory (profit and utility maximisation) as I'm guessing in just about any other field of study involving human behaviour.
Politics won't be any different, I reckon, especially when great power and recognition are dangled. What irks me, however, about politics above the other fields, is the hypocrisy that permeates within the sphere.
I think it's really hard to find a politician who really goes into it primarily to serve his country and people. Even if that might have been the initial motivation, it seems that often gets twisted along the way. Realistically, I think that's a likelihood that most people will recognise and I think some more honest regimes will acknowledge.
Not so the US, with all its high ideals of democracy, human rights, etc. It puts out much PR about its good intentions but really, history suggests that its foreign policy is very much self-motivated. Domestically, politicians fight hard to win power, ingratiating themselves to the electorate to get into power. I'd be interested to know how many really hold strong convictions for the things they campaign on.
It's not so different here. After all, we love all things American. The same hypocrisy is taken to new heights with a govt that claims to be whiter than white, with absolute concern only for the nation, with perfect knowledge and ability - so much so that it demands full reign to implement its perfectly considered policies without distractions from a necessarily inferior and more self-interested opposition.
Is this really true? Why is a former MP in danger of losing his legal licence? Why is it that the world-beating CPF system is now seen to be inadequate for people's retirement needs? How is it civil servants can say that the longevity of their less-educated peers is an inconvenience to the nation?
By world standards, the govt's track record, its policies etc, are actually quite good. It's easy to criticise them for things that don't go perfectly but I've not seen a full-fledge alternative that solves every problem either. In a land of scarce resources, there will always be trade-offs.
If only the rulers of this island will admit to that. Acknowledge that as S'pore is not the perfect country, the govt doesn't have a monopoly of knowledge, nor does it have a monopoly of the most intelligent people in the world. Acknowledge also that like any other political party in the world, like and other human being in the world, motives are likely to be laced if not driven by self interest. And perhaps, reassure all that the party's self-interest is aligned with that of the country's.
Whiter than white? I think not, not by a long mile. Be the grey that all politicians are and don't pretend to be anything else. I'd rather respect an honest and humble leader with all his failings than an arrogant and condescending perfect despot.
simplesandra May 11, 2006 12:35 PM PDT It's almost too ironic when you think that we were once paranoid over the communist threat -- so much so that people got detained by the ISD simply because they were considered "Marxist"... and now we are veering dangerously towards the other extreme -- a fascist state, albeit an economically prosperous one.
In fact, recent fascist regimes like Nazi Germany were brutally efficient. They also had a perfect solution for those who won't "die off conveniently" -- they weed them out.
The apathy shown by the well-off in Singapore towards their poorer and less-educated brethen is enough a worrying sign; that a Minister can propagate such thoughts without a hint of guilt is even more frightening....
cmkoh May 11, 2006 11:49 AM PDT very, very disturbing... considering that the words came straight from the mouth of the perm sec.
Wormie May 11, 2006 11:38 AM PDT I think the heart of the problem is Singapore's siege mentality. Its survival instinct is so strong that it becomes to reason for its existance. Along the way, it lost its human dimension. We are all merely a digit in a very large machinery. Small insignificant part can be changed easily. However if you are part of the main engine, then replacement becomes difficult. Here maintainance is the answer. Same with it policy to the people. The low socioeconomic class easily replaced with foreigner. The middle and high socioeconomic class difficult to change, hence needs to be constantly serviced and maintained.
gayle May 11, 2006 10:38 AM PDT one more thing. jol- no one seemed to like kausikan, heh.
I thought he was okay, I liked how honest he was, and I agered with him on many points insofar as I could see his rationale, even if I didn't agree with that rationale. others thought he was rather pompous and chauvinistic.
I wondered a bit what he was doing there - born a Brit citizen, then a Malaysian, then now a member of the Singaporean govt. talk about being an import.
gayle May 11, 2006 10:33 AM PDT Leo-
a) it is less a translation onto domestic policies than it is a characterizing feature of singaporean policymaking. i find that two things in particular remain remarkably constant in foreign and domestic policy. in this post i discussed just one - expedient self-interest. that's how we do things overseas (show me what's in it for me, or else i'm not going to lift a finger), and that's how we do things at home as well (you better be productive/contribute to GNP/work like a dog/be smart/be a graduate mother, or else you'll fall behind). for more explanation read further down, to my reply to Ian.
another thing which i didn't discuss here but i still find very typical of both foreign and domestic policy is how we are obsessed with manipulating black and white legal writ and following the rules. when i went to Geneva and met the guy in charge of the singapore permanent mission there, earlier this year, he gave us the whole spiel about how Singapore is a 'rules-based system', BUT that we can interpret the rules, and that we can *choose* which rules we had to follow (speaking in terms of foreign policy). for example, we could choose to 'follow the rules' with Malaysia regarding the water agreement, but we could choose to flaunt UN rules and go with the US in the invasion of Iraq, defending it with some loose and vague wording of international law e.g the part in the UN constitution on self defence. similarly, at home, we are *such* a legalistic society -- LKY doesn't use shotguns to silence or intimidate his political opponents, he uses the law, which is in the control of the powerful, enforced by the powerful, and interpreted/shaped by the powerful.
i thought it was interesting, these two key similarities in our foreign and domestic policies, and was wondering if it had to do with the culture of governance here.
oh yes, and regarding who is included within the locus of govt decision of 'self-interest', i would say the rich and the middle class. they have the voting power behind them. well, maybe certain government linked companies are also looked after ;)
agrainofsand: it is definitely true that countries operate by self-interest, but i refuse to accept that there is no room for goodwill in politics. BUT even if you don't agree with me (and i will concede that there are convincing arguments against my idealism), i will still say that goodwill is, in the long term, in the interests of a country -- but singapore doesn't seem willing to grasp that, with its often obnoxious stance on relations with other countries, Australia, Thailand and Malaysia come to mind immediately. we seem to be enthralled by the dollars and cents calculus. we're creating something of a bad name for ourselves, with people whose help we may have to depend on in the future.
Ian- agreed on your analysis of realism in IR being a common feature of right-wing govts. George Bush being a prime example, with his raising steel tariffs and pulling out of the Kyoto Protocol. i think it really is a culture/ideology of governance that percolates through domestic and foreign policy as well. the beliefs and value systems of those in control seem to translate to how they deal with EVERYONE, both their own people and those abroad. Stalin for instance was a defensive, arrogant, paranoid, ruthless bastard, which contributed towards his stamping out of kulaks and dissidents, etc., as well as his drive for expansionism.
ark May 11, 2006 10:11 AM PDT it may be good you know, some pple were not so lucky, they had harboured false hopes for much longer until they became totally disillusioned and -converted- somewhere in the adult stage. It's better to start young ;)
Ian May 11, 2006 09:30 AM PDT Well 'agrainofsand', it could also be that the US has a different perception on certains aspects of what constitutes 'human rights' from most of the international order. For instance they may believe detention without trial is justifiable under certain circumstances whereas most of Europe doesn't. Furthermore, the US district courts actually allow foreigners to bring up cases of human rights abuse even if both the accused and the incident took place outside of the US. Singapore on the other hand, would never do that.
International relations is definitely more impersonal than a government's relation to its people, so I would be careful before assuming that realism in IR immediately translates to realism into a government's dealing with one's own people. At the same time, I think statistics would show that on the whole, realism in IR is a feature of more right-wing governments, and tends to translate into how a right wing government treats its people. Clinton for instance, had a more liberal approach to IR than Bush does.
Jol May 11, 2006 06:35 AM PDT I don't like Kausikan. I wrote a paper debunking the Asian values schtick last year and he was like perfect textbook material for my introduction where I was laying out the basic position. OK this is not really relevant but... I really don't like Kausikan. :)
agrainofsand May 11, 2006 06:05 AM PDT interesting post - and i quite liked Kausikan's comments, refreshingly blunt, if nothing else.
to play the devil's advocate: is there really any country that doesn't have any self interest when helping others? if you notice, the US selectively participates in human rights issues. If it were really that concerned about maintaining a minimum standard of human rights, why apply itself only to certain situations but turn a blind eye on others? it’s a self-serving world, and you might be too idealistic to expect more of Singapore and too quick to want to dissociate from it.
Leopsyche May 11, 2006 05:14 AM PDT I have a couple of questions related to your post that readers may find worthy of discussion.
It may be an acceptable norm in international relations to have self-interest as the primary motive in decision-making given the realpolitik implications.
a) But how does this motive translate to domestic politics?
b) And who are included within the locus of self-interested decisions the government makes? The government? Alternative parties? The people?
Charissa May 11, 2006 01:21 AM PDT I am actually quite surprised that he actually gave such a "open" and "no barriers" forum/discussion.
Singapore is to a large extent a manifestation of an extreme form of capitalism. Faceless and brutal.
From young we were told to not care about others if it does not benefit us (Darn... i still remember that scene in "I not stupid" that potrayed this). This selfish attitude is sadly ingrained in most aspects of singapore society today.
darn... i have alot to say about this but i guess i should stop writing essays on ur comment boxes and pen it in my blog instead. well... i would do it soon.
"do unto other with you want others to do unto you"
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